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have been looking deeply at some basic technique, i was looking at etude no 7 lobos , etude no 1 lobos , and el colibri.
these are mainstays of the classical rep. yet have noticed a few folks in spain play em' for the life of me i aint got the technique any one play them or have any technical advice on achieving the technique to play some thing like etude no 1 lobos , and or el colibri.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
Villa-Lobos Etude #1 is an arpeggio study, that's played with P-I-M. I used to play it, but frankly I found it a little boring. It might be a little useful for arpeggio practice, but you're probably better off practicing arpeggios from flamenco.
El Colibri is the guitar version of "Flight of the Bumblebee." If you can play it fluently it won't hurt your flamenco technique. Some fast picado mixed in.
Here is an audio only, played by a famous classical guitarist.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
Well "El colibri" is a straight forward study in picado. John Williams (and most other classical players) cheat by playing it with alternating thumb and first finger. To play it properly Sagreras indicated the right hand very clearly. You are correct though that this is not often played by flamenco players.
The Villa lobos 1 can also be a great flamenco study . I saw juan habichuela nieto using this in his warm up routine and he gets it flawlessly apoyando at incredible speed. The trick here is alternating apoyando with m and a (which Gerardo Nuñez uses a lot in compositions like trafalgar)
Barrios another good one to practise. The arabesque study and preludes are almost as hard as Bach to execute.
The only technical advice I can offer is like everything. Memorise it, play it slowly and then keep practising the same pieces every day for 3 months slowly building speed. Ive been playing the villa lobos since I was 16 and its only in the last few years that I can get it to sound correct so dont give up.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
I saw juan habichuela nieto using this in his warm up routine and he gets it flawlessly apoyando at incredible speed.
That is most interesting. No classical guitarist I have ever seen plays it apoyando - it is strictly an arpeggio study, and arpeggios are generally played tirando. But now that you say it, I have a feeling it would sound better picado. As it is customarily played it sometimes sounds muddy, but picado would delineate the line better.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
There are a surprising lack of good versions of the villa lobos etude on youtube. Most of the players have arpeggios that while not sloppy are very one dimensional. This guy approaches the technique somewhat but he still hasnt quite mastered the alternation at the end of each arpeggio. I'll try to to an upload tomorrow so you can hear what I'm talking about.
...and check out the Barrios study...flawless playing.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
There is debate among classical guitarists about the best fingering for this Etude, and various different fingerings are used. More importantly though, there is way of playing the arpeggios that I feel makes this piece sound better. It involves a certain use of dynamics. The way you generally hear it played there is usually very little dynamic variation, which exacerbates the repetitive nature of the piece.
However, if you start the arpeggio at a lower volume and gradually get louder as you ascend, peaking at the highest point of the arpeggio, and then gradually get lower as you descend, you get a beautiful rising and falling effect, like waves coming in and then receding. Try it and you'll see what I mean.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
No classical guitarist I have ever seen plays it apoyando - it is strictly an arpeggio study, and arpeggios are generally played tirando. But now that you say it, I have a feeling it would sound better picado.
i have seen people use it as a picado study, and play the whole thing i m apoyando!
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
hi folks , really appreciate the feedback ,
a few folk , j.taneka, several local players in spain, play etude no1 , as P critic say , the debate about finguring is weird, id love to play it as written at a fair tempo,.
p.critic re- dynamics -
what u think of this version
ana phhhhhhhhew forget the study , marry me (ill buy u a yamaha ?
el colibri , i read was played by various players and i have a recoding by serranito its amazing .
i love the fact john williams cheats !! good old john
to play either of the above with the specified fingers seems pretty hard, i.e another 10 years
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
I have seen that video. She is of course a famous classical guitarist. The problem with that video is that the sound is awful, so you can't really say much about it.
I would only add - HANDS OFF ANA VIDOVIC - I SAW HER FIRST! WOW!
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
Well "El colibri" is a straight forward study in picado. John Williams (and most other classical players) cheat by playing it with alternating thumb and first finger.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
these are mainstays of the classical rep. yet have noticed a few folks in spain play em' for the life of me i aint got the technique any one play them or have any technical advice on achieving the technique to play some thing like etude no 1 lobos , and or el colibri.
Hahahha, you always make me laugh MD! perhaps spent more time than so every now and then 30 seconds, it'll work if you concentrate for at least ten minutes a day.
Jason McGuire had a the same etude but with different arpeggio fingering. IMO it doesn't mather if you play this etude or just a simple E and A minor and do the same arpegios. If you got the RH-fingering working than try to use the chords in the Etude. The RH is not that diffucult, but to keep it in time with all the chords is a different story.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
hey kozza if i make u laugh thats awesome in my book , you in spain ? let me know .
flippin trumpet anyhow , that lobos etude is used by heaps of folk , for rh hand dexterity, for the life of me could never play it ,so time to cheat !!!.
cheers all, some great comments and assistance - mucho respecto
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
or the life of me could never play it ,so time to cheat !!!
Ofcourse you can do that man! Kick out the ladies from your room, and take some quality guitar time. No reason to cheat, because....and this is the hard part of my sentence...Paco says its 90% work and sweat....
Pick a nice chord and start plaing your RH...it'll come naturally (but not today or tomorrow morning )
I should have been in Spain, 4 days somewhere on a camping near Allicante in the mountains, and than a week down south, but unfortunately I am still in E. (Although 41 degrees celcius is a little bit over the top)
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
IMO, among flamenco guitarists, just about everyone plays or at least knows about the Villalobos etude, but what's far more commonly used for practice are certain parts of flamenco compositions that reinforce specific techniques. For example, here's what I practice:
For arpeggios, the siguiriya-arpeggio pattern in Paco's malagueña "En la Caleta." It's great practice to work this into a slow bulerías loop. Also, the end of Sabicas' granaína "Joyas de La Alhambra" from his "Flamenco Puro" album. Another one is the long arpeggio passage at the beginning of Paco's taranta/o "Viva La Unión."
For tremolo, the corresponding part of Ricardo's campanilleros, which can be extended with other E minor/B Phrygian tremolos of Sabicas, Ramón Montoya, etc.
For general purposes, the whole of Manolo Sanlúcar's zapateado "Los Caireles" (for p-i-m development) and a couple of bulerías falsetas of El Nani that I've just learned (for right-hand control).
I've never played them, but I think Panaderos and Impetu have been used in this way.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Estevan)
Esteban - I stand corrected. Im pretty sure I read in a John Williams interview years ago where he said himself that he altered the fingering in the studio to make El colibri easier to play, but in that video he clearly uses i,m picado....so i must be mistaken.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
Im pretty sure I read in a John Williams interview years ago where he said himself that he altered the fingering in the studio to make El colibri easier to play,
What you might be remembering is something some classical guitarists have said about John Williams "cheating" by removing notes to make it easier to play – but on a different piece, and by strange chance that different piece is the very other piece under discussion here – Villa-Lobos Etude #1. This has been discussed on classical guitar forums, and it has been pointed out that Abel Carlevaro, a classical guitarist and composer, suggested those very cuts to Villa-Lobos himself, and Villa-Lobos agreed that it was better that way.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)
i use that study sometimes as a chord sequence to practise various arpegios etc., sometimes as a picado string crossing exercise.
quote:
This has been discussed on classical guitar forums
do you have a link to that?
quote:
Abel Carlevaro, a classical guitarist and composer, suggested those very cuts to Villa-Lobos himself, and Villa-Lobos agreed that it was better that way.
if not a link to the info, can you post it up here?
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
Prominent Critic: What you might be remembering is something some classical guitarists have said about John Williams "cheating" by removing notes to make it easier to play – but on a different piece, and by strange chance that different piece is the very other piece under discussion here – Villa-Lobos Etude #1.
No it wasn't, it was Villa-Lobos's Prelude No.1. The passage in question is the chromatic parallel sixths in the descending sequence towards the end of the minor section [bars 33-38]. I heard that Segovia changed it because he didn't like the sound of it - which is certainly plausible as he did that with many pieces - but the enthusiastic followers of Carlevaro like to credit him with everything, and it's possible of course that it was his idea. Although why Carlevaro would change that I don't know; it's easier to play, but the original's not so hard. It's certain that players in Europe who made that change got it from Segovia, (as Carlevaro, living in Uruguay, was pretty well unknown outside South America until maybe the 1980s) and it's possible that Segovia, who lived in Uruguay for a while might have got it from Carlevaro.
Segovia did, however, change a note in the Etude no.1 - he dropped the G on the fourth beat of bar 24 an octave, a musically nonsensical thing to do - to make it easier to play.
quote:
Prominent Critic: There is debate among classical guitarists about the best fingering for this Etude, and various different fingerings are used.
Are you referring to the right hand fingering? I never heard of any debate (but then again I don't move in classical guitar circles). While the piece lends itself to all kinds of fingerings for practice purposes (and I've seen flamencos in Spain use it), the fingering specified by the composer is perfectly good for performance, and I thought that's what everyone used.
I certainly agree with this (PC): "you're probably better off practicing arpeggios from flamenco" ..and Norman's suggestions.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
No it wasn't, it was Villa-Lobos's Prelude No.1.
Right you are. I remembered it wrong. It was Prelude #1. That link you posted was the thread I was thinking of. Below is an audio clip of Villa-Lobos himself playing Prelude #1.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to minordjango)
quote:
quote:
Prominent Critic: There is debate among classical guitarists about the best fingering for this Etude, and various different fingerings are used.
Are you referring to the right hand fingering? I never heard of any debate (but then again I don't move in classical guitar circles). While the piece lends itself to all kinds of fingerings for practice purposes (and I've seen flamencos in Spain use it), the fingering specified by the composer is perfectly good for performance, and I thought that's what everyone used.
There really is much debate among classical guitarists about the fingering for VL Etude #1. Here are some that different guitarists have suggested:
P I P I P I P M I M P I P I P I
P M P I P M I A M A I M P M P I
P M I A P M I A P A I M P A I M
P M P I P M I A M A I M P I P I
I'll be right back - I have to go eat a bowl of alphabet soup.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
Wow...thanks Ricardo, what a coincidence...Im working on this piece right now and the fingering is really helpful. Williams really does have flawless technique for these sorts of pieces and his Scarlatti performances are amazing.
Prom-I've always used P I P I P M I A M A I M P I P I The trick in this fingering is to get the clean alternation of A M A but when you do its like 2 instruments.
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
[Ricardo:] I like to work on parts of this piece [Prelude to Bach's "4th Lute Suite"] as bulerias falsetas in E major. Great technique exercise and with soniquete it works well as buleria.
Far out, man... You're like Parrilla and those old-time guys who used to throw in quotes from Bach and other 'classics' when you least expect it! Which bits do you use? (Maybe I should try that. I used to play that suite, and dig it out once in a blue moon.)
RE: classical etudes in Flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
{Prominent Critic:] There really is much debate among classical guitarists about the fingering for VL Etude #1. Here are some that different guitarists have suggested:
Thanks for the info, PC. I really don't see the point of any debate; I'm with Pimientito as I find the composer's fingering makes perfect sense.
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