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Bullfighter Gored
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 RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Escribano)
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Julio Aparicio is a personal friend of mine. How would you like you friends to be insulted in this way?
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Date Jun. 11 2010 8:57:41
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Escribano)
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I'm not a fan of bullfighting, but it's not my culture so neither am I screaming for it to be banned.
I do know that most bull calves are shot at birth here in the UK as there is no market for them.
Some are shipped abroad for veal production which is a pretty distasteful practice too.
Hunting is a popular sport in the USA, where various wild creatures (deer, bears etc) are targeted by huntsmen kitted out with high-velocity rifles, telescopic sights, laser rangefinders, laser targeting spotters and image intensifiers, etc..
Hardly a "fair" match IMO.
These hunters are not in it for the food, but the "trophy" value, for say, an impressive stag's head for the living room wall to bring back on their fully equipped 4X4's.
Hunters feel it is their right as a citizen in a free society to re-live the "pioneering spirit" of their forebears in "the great outdoors" and pehaps feel a parental duty to introduce their children to experience the thrill of the kill too.
(Wildlife have "families" as well...but I suppose that doesn't count in the fun of the chase and cooking beans on a campfire...)
So I think it would be a bit hypocritical of me to put down Spanish culture in favour of American culture.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jun. 11 2010 9:24:22
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Hunting is a popuplar sport in the USA, where various wild creatures (deer,bears etc) are matched by huntsmen kitted out with high-velocity rifles, telescopic sights, laser rangefinders, laser targeting spotters and image intensifiers.
Hardly a "fair" match IMO.
These hunters are not in it for the food, but the "trophy" value, for say, a nice stag's head for the living room wall to bring back on their fully equipped 4X4's.
Hunters feel it is their right to relive the "pioneering spirit" of their forebears in "the great outdoors" and pehaps like their children to experience the thrill of the kill too.
People who like venison hunt deer for food and there are a lot of poor people in Pennsylvania who eat deer, rabbit, quail, etc. out of necessity. The nice thing about the US is that it has been possible to be poor and still have a decent standard of living and hunting has been a resource for many of these people.
Since deer no longer have any natural predators the state would either have to hire people to kill them to avoid over population or charge hunters for a license to kill them. Deer are also the cause of a lot of car accidents when their population rises.
IMO there is a big difference between animal husbandry which protects a species, as well as killing an animal for food, and killing an animal as part of a public display in a stadium. A bull is a docile animal unless penned up in the dark for days at a time with no food or water.
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Date Jun. 11 2010 10:41:38
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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Hey Pgh man...I'm not condemning hunting or wanting it to be banned or anything.
You are the one who is supporting it, while condemning bullfighting, whereas I support neither.
We too have Deer warnings up our way from time to time.
You just slow down a bit and keep an eye out..
(BTW..have you ever tried venison? It's crap...really strong and overpowering unless you have acquired a taste for it.
Most folk wouldn't thank you for it and would much prefer beef, pork, lamb, chicken etc.)
In a first world developed economy like the USA in 2010 there is no NEED for any citizen to have to resort to hunting their own food.
It's mainly done as a "sport" IMO.
Heh..I just had a vision of some poor guy in a string vest sitting in some run-down social housing project saying to his wife, "OK Honey..this has gone far enough..the kids have had nothing to eat in the past two days...I'm goin' out to git us some FOOD."
So he loads up his huge 10mpg off-road vehicle with all his camping gear, grabs his trusty $4000 hunting rifle and his favourite $500 telescopic sight and heads for them thar hills, stopping only briefly at the Hunting Store to grab $30 worth of ammo and provisions.
Three days later he returns with two stinkin' possums and a raccoon which he proceeds to gut and skin on the kitchen table... meanwhile the kids are screaming in horror and clutching their Mommy's legs, crying.."Mommy, mommy...why can't we just go down to Walmart like all the other families??" 
Of course Daddy replies, "Don't worry sweethearts, OK, it's only possum stew this week..but next week Daddy's gonna git y'all a BEAR!!"
In Scotland we have shooting Estates where grouse etc are reared for the sole purpose of being shot by the wealthy or corporate hospitality shooting parties.
Very expensive, but afterwards you all retire to the Manor House for Smoked Salmon followed by Prime Angus Fillet Steak accompanied by fine wines then Cheese and liqueurs, Highland Malts or Fine French Brandy.
Hardly poor folk!
When I was a kid, occasionally you'd see some kid with an air rifle firing at pigeons.
"Why are you doing that?", you'd ask.
"'Cos they're Vermin.." would be the reply.
This is what I meant about the justification/disclaimer/excuse aspect.
Of course later they would get bored and go looking for rats along the canal.
If no rats were to be found, then the ass of a passing cat would also be a suitable target, even though the cat would theoretically be on their side in wanting to kill the vermin.
An early experience of "friendly fire" I guess?
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jun. 12 2010 2:53:02
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Ron.M)
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Ron, you are correct about many attitudes of well enough off folks that like to hunt just want to kill something. But when it comes to deer specificially, PGH is right. Where I live there are huge herds of em coming through the neighborhood, starving. They eat everyones flowers and bushes in their front yards. Now I don't care so much about that, that no one around can keep a pretty yard, but the vast majority of these animals are road kill. It is nasty. And you can't just slow down. My aunt was side slammed by a deer that totaled the car, then ran off. Some neighbors hunt and eat em, but it is too much meat to eat to keep the population down. Like he said they have to be killed because other than humans, there are not enough predators to balance the population, and they starve and make lots of road kill.
now, humans, same problem, not enough predators. 
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Date Jun. 12 2010 7:03:44
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
So sorry for my misunderstanding of the situation Pgh.
No problem, you’d never know from the current deer population that they were extinct in PA about 150 years ago. Ricardo is right about deer running erratically and mass starvation being an issue, too.
quote:
What would be fairer IMO though, would be for Grizzly Bear hunters to only be allowed to carry a Matador's cape and sword.
There are modern versions of black powder, muzzle-loading rifles that are popular for deer and bear hunting. People also hunt bear with large caliber handguns. I don’t think anyone will take you up on the cape and sword, though—maybe an atlatl would be a better choice.
quote:
Ironically I never hit one on the road in the US but bought another Cherokee when I came back to the UK and then ran over one in Berkshire, which otherwise would have ended up in my lap and might have killed me at 40 mph. In the UK the law states one must report it, so I did.
You have to report it here, too. About 25 years ago my grandfather went to his mailbox to mail a letter. About 15 minutes later he realized he forgot to mail another letter. When he went back out he found a deer lying dead in the snow on his driveway. He took it inside and butchered it with the help of my grandmother. The game commission never learned about this one. We ate venison for about a year. It was good, but I think it has to soaked in vinegar to get rid of the odd flavor.
Ron, I’ll take your advice and stay away from Spanish bulls. All that sangria and paella make for a more hot-blooded animal. 
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Date Jun. 12 2010 9:02:56
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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Generally i think in most European Countries and in USA, there is a more civilized behaviour towards animals than in other countries like in Asia, Africa, etc. and there are many animal protection movements, doing a great job.
I have to admit that for instance in my country, Dogs and Cats are treated bad. There are many wild Dogs running in the streets and many people don't even want to touch them. They are considered to be dirty animals. And some police shoot them to make the streets "clean". I guess you could also compare it to many regions of spain, where animal protection is not so important and there is no such a sence for animals and their rights. You see many cats and dogs from Spain, imported to Germany to animal sanctuaries.
But on the other side, you have some people in US (or elsewhere) who have a shotgun under their bed and would shoot a human beeing right in the head without thinking twice, but fight for animal rights and would not do any harm to a dog. Or you have people who use animals just as a replacement and compensation for a human beeing, because they are not able to be bond to humans anymore. Or the whole industry making billions of dollars each month with all kind of useless accesoires for dogs, cats, etc.
This is also sick, just as it's sick to torture animals or don't care for animals, etc.
In Germany, its also very exterem sometimes. When i go for a walk, out of 2 people, one of them has a dog and is talking with the Dog the whole time, as if the dog is a human and understands everything the guy is telling him. But when you walk past them and say hello, you don't even hear an answer sometimes. This is also a little sick, no?
I think there should be some kind of middle way between these two extremes.
Some people should learn, how to treat animals and others must learn other things again.
As mentioned, i don't like bullfighting either but for me a life of a human beeing is still more important than a life of a Bull.
No matter if that Bull was treated bad or not. So i would never say something like Doit said.
Also some people mentioned, there is no fair fight and human always wins in bullfights.
Well, this time the Bull somehow won. I don't think that there is any other meeting between an animal and a human today, where an animal has even a minimal chance to gore a human
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Date Jun. 12 2010 23:25:26
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Bullfighter Gored (in reply to Stu)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
I eat plenty of them! and would be happy to wring a chickens neck or slit a pigs throat if I had to.....but I wouldn't f#@k with it for an hour first. We all know the issue isn't the killing or the eating!
Yeah agreed my Mum always told me not to play with my food !
Simon, they may be about to ban the corrida in Catalonia, but Madrid retaliated with a bill to make it a cultural heritage and so protect it. I dont imagine it will be banned in Andalucia in my lifetime.
Ron when the Corrida is eventually banned, they will not be shot at birth rather the Spanish fighting bull will be extinct as they are only bred for the bullring. Maybe a few specimens will be kept and bred in zoos.
And sorry Simon yes you are right and I am wrong to imply that it is hypocritical of carnivores to be against bullfighting. Obviously it is not the killing of the bull but the manner in which it is killed that people find offensive. Aficionados however see it as an honour for the bull to die in the ring, and if I were a bull I would rather die fighting than in an abbatoir. I was a bit abrupt in my post and I apologise I am just a bit fed up of the continous debate on the foro, fueled no doubt by gory youtube videos, when there are so many other atrocities going on in this world which to my mind are far more important.
Arash not only in Iran my friend. In the UK the RSPCA, society for protection of animals, which funnily enough raises more charity money than the equivalent NSPCC which protects children, regularly takes stray dogs and puts them down, most animal lovers dont realise what they are actually funding.
When I first came to Spain there were packs of wild abandoned dogs roaming the streets, diseased and starving. You dont see this now, not because people no longer abandon their dogs but because they are routinely rounded up and killed.
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Date Jun. 13 2010 4:08:05
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