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New Tomatito Cd titled 'Sonanta suite' in April. It appears that it was recorded live with orchestra in a 2008 concert. Tracklist:
Porque tú lo vales (soleá) Mariángeles (tangos) La cantera (taranta) Alegrías Canción turca Para Troilo y Salgán (tango) Adios Noninohttps Taranta Two Much Más bulerías Pa la Pimpi
It might be good with the orchestra? I really love the Spain/Spain again CDs.. altho it's not flamenco, I find that the sounds compliment each other.. maybe this CD would be like that?
Orchestral music is beautiful. Flamenco music is beautiful. Nevertheless, the two do not mix well, to the detriment of flamenco. Orchestral music, accompanied by flamenco guitar, still sounds beautifully orchestral. But the flamenco is diluted to an extent that it is no longer flamenco. This is not a question of "traditional" vs. "nuevo." It is simply flamenco, like Icarus in the Greek myth, immolating its wings by flying too close to a sun it was never meant to, and should have never attempted to, approach.
Well, so what if it's no longer flamenco? Are the only types of good music the music that is 100% flamenco and the music that is 0% flamenco? If orchestral music accompanied by flamenco guitar is still beautifully orchestral, then why shut yourself off to that?
If you want to say, on the other hand, that a lot of attempts to combine flamenco and orchestra haven't worked out well, that's something I might be able to get on board with. But when you play something like the guajira from Vicente's Poeta and tell me something's wrong with that, well, then that just sounds like delusion.
Yeah theres something intimate, narrative to a solo performance, not only solo guitar, also solo piano, violin etc... opposed to the seemingly festive orchestra music. But i disagree in that i have seen many good introductions of other instruments.
I wonder who had this orchestra idea, and WHAT he was thinking when he had this idea? Was it like: "Hey guys i have it! Lets do some original thing this time!!! Lets play the same flamenco as always, but this time, WITH ORCHESTRAAAH!"
AAAHH!! If its a disrespect to download albums, then i will definitely download this one! and probably, as i know myself, i will delete it after that and download it again.
yeah i agree...while orchestra is nice ...the album becomes something else
in many examples often the guitar becomes simplified because its relying on the orchestra...its the kind of thing a guitarrist does when he dosent have a whole album of new material or new ideas
theres some flamenco albums with orchestra i like, and listened to a couple of times but its a novelty ...i dont listen to orchestral flamenco when i want flamenco...just when i want some background ambiance...for one thing u cannever copy any of the falsetas cause most feel empthy without the orchestra...so the educational part is out the window.....and to me every good album should be entertaining as educational......but ofcourse this album might be excellent i havent heard it yet, so i wont make up my mind 100% before i hear it
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cajon + palmas. thats all you need
and cante...any perfect guitar solo album should have atleast 2 or 3 cante tracks, IMO
I agree that the intimacy of a solo performance, or one with just a guitarist and a singer (and maybe some palmas) is fantastic, but that doesn't mean that only that kind of music has merit. I mean, honestly, four centuries of orchestrated classical music speaks to the contrary.
I'm pretty sure the people who came up with the orchestra-in-flamenco idea realized that there's a lot of great music to be found in orchestral forms, that it would make some interesting and different music, and that there's really nothing wrong with that as long as the music is good.
Seriously, I can understand the desire for raw, gritty solo performances, and most flamenco I listen to is like that, but it's just silly to say that all flamenco should be only that. All told, I don't understand how you can categorically reject orchestral flamenco without rejecting all orchestral music outright.
ORIGINAL: ramparts but that doesn't mean that only that kind of music has merit. I mean, honestly, four centuries of orchestrated classical music speaks to the contrary.
It doesnt mean that there must be a good alternative either. And, the time a music has passed on this earth is a measure of what exactly? I have nothing against orchestral music, but its a different taste. Orchestral compositions are different, its not even a musical style in itself to be very precise, they were used to add effects to a composition. A fusion of two good music styles does not have to be a success. I like chocolate and i like steak, but i dont want chocolate steak.
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but it's just silly to say that all flamenco should be only that
No, it doesn't have to be a success. Obviously if you're making bad orchestral flamenco, you should stop making it. If you're making any bad music, you should stop making it. But it seems pretty clear to me that if you have two types of good music, there exists a balance (however difficult to strike) that utilizes both well and to good effect.
Also, you have a fair point that once you start adding orchestras and stuff, it's probably not be right to call it flamenco. Just good music that has a significant flamenco influence. It seems to me that a lot of people have a huge problem with that kind of music; I personally see no problem. If it's good music, it's good music no matter whether it's "puro" or not.
Well, so what if it's no longer flamenco? Are the only types of good music the music that is 100% flamenco and the music that is 0% flamenco? If orchestral music accompanied by flamenco guitar is still beautifully orchestral, then why shut yourself off to that?
If you want to say, on the other hand, that a lot of attempts to combine flamenco and orchestra haven't worked out well, that's something I might be able to get on board with. But when you play something like the guajira from Vicente's Poeta and tell me something's wrong with that, well, then that just sounds like delusion.
i think the people who mentioned that they prefer flamenco without orchestra, don't mean that other types of music are not good music.
its just that if they are in mood for flamenco, they somehow prefer the "less is more" theory ;-)
for me flamenco is like a good steak. you just need salt and peper. 2 minutes of roasting each side, and thats it.
but if you add ketchup, or other fancy sauces, then you ruin the steak imo.
but as mentioned, there are exceptions with some well-conceived and subtle orchestral addition which really sounds good and interesting, but as far as i am concerned, i have to say that maybe 10% of flamenco-orchestra tracks which i heard, belong to this category. thats just me of course.
ORIGINAL: ramparts I personally see no problem. If it's good music, it's good music no matter whether it's "puro" or not.
No i dont have a problem either, i dont walk around telling everybody whats flamenco and whats not, if people are not interested. I just think on this forum we are above the average knowledge so we should be able to agree on these things IMO. And this stuff is simply not. I dont think there is something like good orchestra fusion. Orchestra was used, as you say correctly, in the classical music. It had and has its justification, musically, in those promiment musical fields, and i simply dont count flamenco to be a part of them.
Yeah Arash, maybe that's true. I probably wouldn't put it as low as 10% but there's definitely some orchestral flamenco which doesn't do it for me. But moods are moods - sometimes you're in the mood for a juicy steak with salt n peppa (or on its own), sometimes you want a burger with everything on it. Same way, sometimes (usually) I want to listen to Camarón jamming with Tomatito, sometimes I'm in the mood to hear Miguel Poveda's Cante i Orquesta album (which I think is very tastefully done) or Vicente's Poeta or something. And sometimes (a lot, these days!) I'm in the mood for Juan Carmona's Orillas which does a little bit of orchestration and a lot of Arabic with some very flamenco tracks.
Like I said, man, good music is good music. It seems like a lot of people here have no problem with different types of music, unless there's any hint of flamenco in it, in which case it becomes a "bastardization of flamenco." I say bastardize away; just make sure it's damn good, and if it's too bastardized then don't call it flamenco
would like to add that i even have problems with 2 or 3 guitars playing together (except some rumbas and except some few compositions in other palos).
so its not so much (or only) against other instruments.
its somehow against too much muddle, or, i don't know how to explain, too many different sounds together. specially in modern compositions, a single guitar plays so much different nuances and details, that other sounds would overlap it and you can't even hear it with all its subtle details anymore.
Hey, I think my 500th post was on this thread!! And I'm a fellow now. Did I just become a fellow? Sweet
congrats, you now have access to the secret adult part of the forum there you can also find, among other things, the correct and full definition of what flamenco is!
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unless there's any hint of flamenco in it, in which case it becomes a "bastardization of flamenco."
Usually its the other way: theres no flamenco in it, but its called like that. But lets not start on this, its very late here, and it doesnt get earlier
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