RE: tremolo question

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
Some guitarists will play tremelo in the opening falsetas to various styles, before the cantaor begins, but they don't seem to use it in falsetas inbetween verses.
I think the cantaor would probably raise an eyebrow at the guitarist for trying to steal the attention LOL!
Good to hear the dance classes are paying off.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 14:58:25

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks Ron, that's what I thought. So its reasonable therefore to think of tremolo as primarily a solo guitar technique?.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 15:19:18

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

I thought someone here from Spain (Sean?) said recently that tremolo was basically irrelevant in the context of accompanying cante.

I would go with that. Fancy falsetas can be irrelevant in cante in that it may detract from the singer - who will generally give his/her guitarist the nod to show off when they want to take drink or a puff

However, I hear tremelo in the Solea llamadas to "call in" the cante. I cannot comment on dance as I hear more flamenco than I see. I'll rectify that in Granada.

I also think the crux of my point is that all manner of frills such as tremelo are important to solo guitar for listenability but it does not carry the melody of flamenco, as this is in the cante. i.e. cante is flamenco, with or without guitar but not the other way around.

I suppose it boils down to whether one considers a solo guitar performance to be flamenco. At the moment, I do not. But this is clearly evolving with the superb post-PDL guitarists.

p.s. not sure I like the way I have explained that but all the great solo guitarists have made their bones accompanying cante and baille - that's their job.

I would suggest that they didn't then decide to learn some new techniques like tremelo or picado in order to go solo they just practise and use them more.

Perhaps this is why some guitarists are better known for their solo work e.g. Pepe Habichuela, they are better at the free styles and these ornamental techniques?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 15:21:44

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Right hand fingerings (in reply to Ron.M)

Unless you're Gerardo Nuñez. Listen to a few of the tracks on Calima. There are passages there where it is the tremolo that is the focus of the melody and not the bass notes, in fact they become lost behind the tremolo. It's not entirely one or the other, it is dependent upon the piece being played (and the emphasis the player wants to bring out).

In more traditional palos, then ones that most can recognize, the thumb takes precedence but I think you'll find the reverse has become common in the more modern styles and pieces.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 15:48:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Right hand fingerings (in reply to Jamey)

quote:

Unless you're Gerardo Nuñez

LOL! Jamey,
Yeah, that's about it.
Apart from compás, you can do what the heck you like.
There is a sort of accepted norm which changes from year to year.
If what you do is liked, then it's copied and becomes the new norm.
That's what makes this a difficult art form to study.
Things are hard to pin down. Rules are strict and hazy at the same time.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 16:09:40

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Right hand fingerings (in reply to Skai)

Hmmm. Well, if you hear a lot of dance accomp. and that's what you hear in the States, then you may never hear tremolo in your life. On the other hand, I know some Montoya falsetas with tremolo--supposedly he is the first flamenco to import this technique from classical. I was under the impression that he was pretty well based in cante accomp., but to tell you the truth I can't recall ever hearing tremolo in any accompaniment setting. Maybe in something with Paco and Camaron?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 16:57:50

Guest

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Hola

I play tremolo falsetas in Malagueñas and Granainas. During the cante accompaniment never, in any palo.

I have also heard tremolo falsetas in solea and alegrias, but really just as a reverse arpeggio substitute.

Sadly,I can raise no interest in solo guitar.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 21:02:37

musicalgrant

Posts: 188
Joined: Oct. 21 2004

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Ron.M)

Hi

I always thought that tremolo was a way for the guitarist to make up for the short sustain of the notes, i.e the guitar stringwhen plucked sounds loud and then fades away

so the poor guitarist thought how can I make it sustain better? And lo and behold tremolo was born LOL

In Paco De Lucias solea (for solo guitar I might add) his tremolo resembles cante in the way it moves, ie instead of staying on one not for the tremolo i,a,m,i etc....the notes change and hence trying to recreate, I emphasize trying, the cante.

Even in classical guitar we are always trying to imitate the best instrument that was born, and that is the voice, that is where all music sprung from, and instruments came later...as in flamenco guitar solos came later, and hence are trying to imitate the singer, the dancer and whatever else

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 21:55:01

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Sadly,I can raise no interest in solo guitar.

Yep, I guess I am joining you, though it's great background music. Trouble is, I am always waiting for Camerón or El Potito to come on in.

Does that make me a snob?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 22:19:57

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Escribano)

Yes, you guys are snobs, there's no doubt about it! But it's pretty normal in the flamenco community to "put guitarists in their places."

But I guess it's a normal progression.... play bass in a punk band, become a microsoft engineer, start playing flamenco guitar.... get a house in Granada and get sick of flamenco guitar.... start listening to cante...

Don't take any of this seriously, by the way :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 22:33:57

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

get sick of flamenco guitar.... start listening to cante...

Hey, I'm getting old but I'll not sicken of the guitar and I never take you seriously, Michael

quote:

play bass in a punk band

Maybe that's why I think the melody is in the thumb?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 22:48:00

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Escribano)

Incidently, how many other people here played in punk bands years ago and somehow ended up in flamenco? (was this asked before?)
How many others here played finger style bass previously?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 0:24:06

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jamey)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamey
Incidently, how many other people here played in punk bands years ago and somehow ended up in flamenco? (was this asked before?)
How many others here played finger style bass previously?

Rock, goth and almost punk bands: electric guitar, bass and vocals depending on the band.

Nearly turned pro as a bassist - I was asked to audition for a UK band called New Model Army who were at the time (early nineties) high in the charts with a couple of singles, and selling out Brixton academy (which is a fair size venue in London).

Cheers

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:01:33

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Trouble is, I am always waiting for Camerón or El Potito to come on in.

Does that make me a snob?

Not in the case of those two, consider yourself excused

jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:03:39

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

New Model Army

They were big, what happened to the audition? I can't say we were punk, more pre-grunge, post-industrial heavies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:16:32

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
They were big, what happened to the audition?

They shortlisted about five of us from demos that were sent in after they announced in the press that they were looking for a new bass player. The audition went quite well, we played through several of their numbers, but ultimately another guy got the job

.

Big, big turning point in my life that would have been, but sadly it wasn't to be.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:26:56

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Ron.M)

Wow, Simon and Jon two semi-famous guys! I am impressed.

Simon, if my wife wanted to learn how to play enough bass to do some rumbas and stuff like that, is there a particular bass which might make it easier since she's a fairly small woman?

I started off playing guitar in about '90, doing Metallica and that kind of stuff. (Actually we weren't good enough to play Metallica so we wrote our own, "metallica-like" songs."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 15:39:13

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

is there a particular bass which might make it easier since she's a fairly small woman

Don't know I am afraid. I would try Google. Tracy Lamb of Girls School and Suzi Quatro used a Fender Bass I think, one of the largest. Not sure about about Tina Weymouth of Talking Heads. Have a look at the Washburn.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 16:21:11

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I still have an Ibanez Road Star II. The action is low and the bass itself is smaller (smaller more streamlined body). You're wife might want to go with something like that. They are meant to be jazz basses I think and are a rather easy to play for a bass (i.e. weight, low action, neck width etc.).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 18:10:20

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Ron.M)

Initially I was in "hardcore" bands, that straight ahead fast noise (heavy Minor Threat influences). Later I was involved in college-alt-rock-whatever type of bands. Sort of a cross between Sonic Youth and The Pixies. The Pixies played their first show together again after their hiatus here in Winnipeg this past summer. Needless to say it was sold out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 18:14:32

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Jamey)

quote:

Sort of a cross between Sonic Youth

Supported them a couple of times in London - wild night.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 19:23:58

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: tremolo question (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Simon, if my wife wanted to learn how to play enough bass to do some rumbas and stuff like that, is there a particular bass which might make it easier since she's a fairly small woman?

Yes, a 3/4 scale one. The neck is much shorter.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2004 12:40:41