Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos?
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
srshea
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
|
 RE: Do you download illegal flamenco... (in reply to cathulu)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cathulu
My personal feeling is that it is OK to download music, as artists can tour and make money in concerts and fan related merchandise. That is a very profitable business, and many new artists want there stuff out there for FREE so they can grow a fan base and profit from that. Then, when the whiff of money gets in their noses, after giving it away for FREE and getting to the point when they make money, they want even more money and try and stop the free stuff. Well it is too late by then! You can' have it both ways.
Yeah! I saw Ines Bacan on her Monsters of Flamenco arena tour last year. She sold out a huge stadium, and I bought a tour shirt with all the dates and cities on the back, a key chain, mousepad, squirt bottle, travel mug, baseball cap, the works! She must have made a bundle that night! I almost got an autograph, before her stretch limo sped off into the night….
Sorry, I really try to avoid sarcasm here on the Foro, but this is just nonsense. The context that this issue is being discussed in is a FLAMENCO context. We’re not talking about Van Halen! Flamencos don’t HAVE “fan related merchandise” OTHER than CDs (or instructional stuff). And they don’t tour the way rock or pop acts do, at least not in the U.S. It’s only the guys like PDL or Paco Pena that can stage broad, multi-city tours in the Americas. For the rest of flamenco acts that do cross the Atlantic, they tend to play a handful of regional shows and milk these appearances for all they’re worth with workshops and lessons. I’m not privy to the figures these people are making, but it’s definitely NOT cheap to come over here to play, and it can’t be the easiest way to make a living. By all accounts, life as a professional flamenco is a full time hustle.
Even outside of a flamenco context, touring and selling merch is only a “very profitable business” for acts that are at the higher levels of their respective genres. For the mid and lower level artists, simply scratching out a modest living and avoiding a day job through A LOT of hard work and A LOT of time on the road can be considered a success. I’ve known a lot of people at these lower-mid and higher levels in the punk/indie rock world. I’ve toured with some of them, sold their shirts and records, and even when things are going very well it’s not exactly a goldmine out there. (And from what I’ve been hearing, things aren’t going all that well. People are spending less at shows. They’re buying just a shirt or just a CD, if they buy anything at all, instead of buying both as would have been more typical in better economic times. Independent artists are definitely feelin’ it out there, and flamencos are, by and large, independent artists.)
Even in Spain, flamenco is a subculture and the people that are making serious dough from it have to be the exception. Guys like Calixto Sanchez and Pedro Pena have day jobs as school teachers, for crying out loud!
There’s just not that much money in flamenco for all but a few. The rest of ‘em can use all the support they can get.
I don’t wanna get into any arguments here, and I was hoping to avoid this topic altogether, but saying that flamenco musicians can simply make their money in ways other than selling their own music is a facile justification that does not hold up.
And while I’m on my high horse, the subject really is “off topic”, and frankly I don’t know that it’s a good idea to be discussing it here at all. It makes me feel a little uneasy to think of what unwanted attention this sort of chatter might attract to the Foro. I dunno, Simon seems to be fine with it, so…
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 26 2010 11:47:06
 |
|
cathulu
Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan
|
|
RE: Do you download illegal flamenco... (in reply to srshea)
|
|
|
Well, I was talking in generalities. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect yours - in fact I don't think you and I are that far apart - you take major exception to my characterisation of merchandise and touring as a "very profitable business". You are right. I guess what I mean is that for most, it is their main source of income meagre as it may be. And how do you increase that sole source of income? I believe for most struggling artists, my argument holds water.
Anyways, you give very good examples of flamencos and Punk Rockers who don't make a lot of money with album sales. That is probably the truth for most.
Give you an example, look at Jason for example as he is a public person and has documented his case to some extent in the public forums. Now, I am not privy to what how he is doing financially and all that and he can jump in and correct me, but I suspect his CD sales are not great, he is not happy with his own record producer and offered music that didn't make the cut on his CD for free. So why put out an CD at all, i don't understand it. Probably the same goes for Ricardo's CD sales.
Are the CDs vanity pieces? Do they cover the cost of production? Maybe someone else paid the freight and didn't get a decent return on investment. I suspect it is a lot more complicated than I have portrayed, apologies in advance for the simplicity I am presenting. Maybe CDs are made as part of fan merchandise, as that is the expectation. Modern technology has allowed CDs to be produced cheaply, so the sword cuts both ways. Man I am rambling!
The current system is not that old, with mega record companies controlling the shots and only selected musicians making it. What, it dates back less than 100 years. Music has been around for ages and musicians have made livings before the current system and they will make money with whatever comes after. Anyways, I also argued for the 10 cent track.
The most exposure Jason gets is youtube and I bet he is very proud to have it, over 1,000,000 hits. Grisha is also very proud of that, and is part of what allows him to be a successful touring artists. What do you think puts bums in his seats and attracts people to his lessons? The free access to find out what he is about and the word of mouth.
Anyways, I am not cheap, I have put my own money up here in this forum and I attend flamenco concerts, local shows, flamenco school productions, purchase flamenco lessons, support local artists, purchase guitars from local luthiers, and all that. I even buy flamenco CDs.
I think this is an important issue and worth exploring. I don't think we should restrict discussions on this topic. It is very relevant to our lives and you can't hide from what is going on all around you.
Finally, if Jason, Grisha or Ricardo or other Foro Flamenco alumni ever make it up here to Vancouver, I will be supporting them with my own cash also.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 26 2010 15:46:20
|
|
cathulu
Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan
|
|
RE: Do you download illegal flamenco... (in reply to Ron.M)
|
|
|
Hi Ron, the whole issue is a lot more complicated than portraying it as "theft".
What about recording a TV show for later viewing? That was considered theft at one time. When Video Recorders came out there was a fight to prevent them from being used - went to the US Supreme Court if my memory holds correct. Where would we be if the Court ruled the other way.
What about photocopying a page from a book from a library. Fair use, no? Or is that theft? Undoubtably someone considered that theft at one time, but public fair use overruled it. Now what mindset caused that to happen? If mindsets can change, what does the future hold?
What about making a copy of your protected CD or movie so you can preserve it from scratches or damage. Theft? That is fair use imho but illegal in the US per the DMCA as I understand it.
What about trading cassettes of songs you made with your friends. That was theft?
Anyways, in Canada we have a recording media levy to compensate artists for copying/downloading. How much money has been collected and where does that money go, that is what I want to know.
In Canada it is legal to borrow a CD from a Public Library and listen to it. Can you do that in Scotland? I would guess yes. Is that theft? No CD sale to the artist as a result of that. Also, in Canada it is legal to make a recording of that borrowed CD believe it or not. Is that also true in Scotland?
It is a very complex issue. And what about when the Artist is dead, how long to wait until it is in the free domain? I believe the US has recently increased the time period, people will have to wait longer...
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 26 2010 16:07:13
|
|
Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
|
|
RE: Do you download illegal flamenco... (in reply to cathulu)
|
|
|
quote:
Hi Ron, the whole issue is a lot more complicated than portraying it as "theft".
I would agree there Cathulu...
Well here in the UK, we have to pay for a TV license and we pay for the commercial stations by watching the adverts, which pays the artist's fee.
So time-shifting a program or taping it for my own use never gave me any concern.
It also doesn't bother me about folk making a copy of an album for a friend etc.
What does concern me though, are people posting links to free websites which have complete albums and films and making them available to anyone at all worldwide.
This is basically unsustainable in the long run....
It's not my problem though and it's up to the recording and film industry to work out a better method of music and movie distribution.
The Executives and Directors there get paid well enough...so it's about time they started working for their money IMO, instead of sitting back and letting the dough pour in as they have done in the past.
As for the Flamenco artists?
Most of them are pretty small-time in the league of record sales, with many of them on small, independent or their own labels.
We can't put them in the same bag as The Rolling Stones or Madonna...
So when I buy a small-label Flamenco CD, then I feel it's like saying "thanks" to the Artist.
It's a precarious industry, and although the particular artist might be going through a good patch ATM, there is no certainty about the future whatsoever.
Play the game. Don't steal from those people.
cheers,
Ron
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 27 2010 11:29:39
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14838
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Do you download illegal flamenco... (in reply to M.S.A.)
|
|
|
quote:
flamenco artist so as the other pop artists, are still earning an incredible money by their live performances, so they DO NOT DEPEND ON SALE OF THEIR CD'S.
I learned about this stuff in school, and it was made clear to us at that time this all would happen in the future. So I patiently waited to make my own CD, cutting the middle man, and using the net for advert. I keep 100% of the money from selling it, and honestly, I DO need it. I have seen it play out litterally, where I don't have money for food or gas, then bam, someone buys a CD and I got $20 in my pocket. At the same time you can see me play for free on youtube some stuff on my CD, or download your fav track for $0.99...and CD baby or Itunes only give me a percentage of that...but I don't care. In fact I don't care if a majority of the folks are sharing my tracks free. Why?
Well, I always get asked to share stuff I have on my Ipod for free with friends, but I don't do it so easy. When they push me then I let them have the reason, and it is not pretty.
Ok, forget about the money and all that. When I listen to music, I like to have the Disc and the booklet and the case, and all that. I used to like Records, then Tapes but tapes where not always so great cuz they were small but I prefered the orginal to copies cuz of th booklets. And CD's are perfect like records but a little smaller.
OK, so I don't download anything music for that reason. And all the kids and folks that share or download, don't listen even to music the way I did and still do. They can't , the just can't get into it the same way IMO, they don't CARE ENOUGH ABOUT IT, and that is how I feel. Sorry to all the poor people out there but I DONT CARE. If it really matters to you, you find a way to collect this stuff.
So I reserve the right to sell my CD to who I want for what price I want OR NOT! And in fact I have gotten bad vibes from potential customers for letting them take my CD home. "YOu want HOW MUCH??? jeez 20 bucks it better be good....".... I have been tried to get talked down and when I am not in the mood I say "sorry not for sale". Because this thing is not just for making money. It is a long term investment. I dont' have time for people that want things cheap and fast and easy. They don't need my music. They can see it for free on youtuve or download it. One day all the discs will be gone, and who knows if I will reproduce it or not. For now it is a calling card and some gas and food on occasion.
But record companies, who cares. We learned the internet was gonna kill those big business but the artists, the real artists, would benefit and have more control over their own stuff.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Apr. 27 2010 19:21:28
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
) 
) 
