RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Full Version)

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sean65 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 9:45:12)

quote:

So I say you get and APPRECIATE what you pay for.


Very True. There's a disturbing move towards such an unappreciative and throw-away society these days. I value the things I buy. If it were all free it would have no value.

The arguments about BIG companies being able to suffer the loses are a weak justification. The average thief doesn't differentiate between big business and a self employed individual.

It's a bit like saying "lets steal something from the $5,000,000 house at the end of the street because they can afford it". [:-]

It's just a BS argument from ignorant people.



Ron.M -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 10:52:28)

I agree completely with Ed.

I'm not wealthy by any means, but I believe in paying for another person's work when that is their main source of income.

Anything other is theft.

If you can't afford it, then less is good IMO...(and will do you good actually!)

(Just good old, honest Scottish socialism. [;)])

Like Ricardo, I too remember saving up for an album and completely savouring it all for a month.

If I buy an album even now, I will have it on the CD player for a whole week, extracting everything I can, before listening to anything else.

(Just good old Scottish "tight fistedness" and demanding value for money![:D])


cheers,

Ron



srshea -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 11:47:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu
My personal feeling is that it is OK to download music, as artists can tour and make money in concerts and fan related merchandise. That is a very profitable business, and many new artists want there stuff out there for FREE so they can grow a fan base and profit from that. Then, when the whiff of money gets in their noses, after giving it away for FREE and getting to the point when they make money, they want even more money and try and stop the free stuff. Well it is too late by then! You can' have it both ways.


Yeah! I saw Ines Bacan on her Monsters of Flamenco arena tour last year. She sold out a huge stadium, and I bought a tour shirt with all the dates and cities on the back, a key chain, mousepad, squirt bottle, travel mug, baseball cap, the works! She must have made a bundle that night! I almost got an autograph, before her stretch limo sped off into the night….

Sorry, I really try to avoid sarcasm here on the Foro, but this is just nonsense. The context that this issue is being discussed in is a FLAMENCO context. We’re not talking about Van Halen! Flamencos don’t HAVE “fan related merchandise” OTHER than CDs (or instructional stuff). And they don’t tour the way rock or pop acts do, at least not in the U.S. It’s only the guys like PDL or Paco Pena that can stage broad, multi-city tours in the Americas. For the rest of flamenco acts that do cross the Atlantic, they tend to play a handful of regional shows and milk these appearances for all they’re worth with workshops and lessons. I’m not privy to the figures these people are making, but it’s definitely NOT cheap to come over here to play, and it can’t be the easiest way to make a living. By all accounts, life as a professional flamenco is a full time hustle.

Even outside of a flamenco context, touring and selling merch is only a “very profitable business” for acts that are at the higher levels of their respective genres. For the mid and lower level artists, simply scratching out a modest living and avoiding a day job through A LOT of hard work and A LOT of time on the road can be considered a success. I’ve known a lot of people at these lower-mid and higher levels in the punk/indie rock world. I’ve toured with some of them, sold their shirts and records, and even when things are going very well it’s not exactly a goldmine out there. (And from what I’ve been hearing, things aren’t going all that well. People are spending less at shows. They’re buying just a shirt or just a CD, if they buy anything at all, instead of buying both as would have been more typical in better economic times. Independent artists are definitely feelin’ it out there, and flamencos are, by and large, independent artists.)

Even in Spain, flamenco is a subculture and the people that are making serious dough from it have to be the exception. Guys like Calixto Sanchez and Pedro Pena have day jobs as school teachers, for crying out loud!

There’s just not that much money in flamenco for all but a few. The rest of ‘em can use all the support they can get.

I don’t wanna get into any arguments here, and I was hoping to avoid this topic altogether, but saying that flamenco musicians can simply make their money in ways other than selling their own music is a facile justification that does not hold up.

And while I’m on my high horse, the subject really is “off topic”, and frankly I don’t know that it’s a good idea to be discussing it here at all. It makes me feel a little uneasy to think of what unwanted attention this sort of chatter might attract to the Foro. I dunno, Simon seems to be fine with it, so…



cathulu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 15:46:20)

Well, I was talking in generalities. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect yours - in fact I don't think you and I are that far apart - you take major exception to my characterisation of merchandise and touring as a "very profitable business". You are right. I guess what I mean is that for most, it is their main source of income meagre as it may be. And how do you increase that sole source of income? I believe for most struggling artists, my argument holds water.

Anyways, you give very good examples of flamencos and Punk Rockers who don't make a lot of money with album sales. That is probably the truth for most.

Give you an example, look at Jason for example as he is a public person and has documented his case to some extent in the public forums. Now, I am not privy to what how he is doing financially and all that and he can jump in and correct me, but I suspect his CD sales are not great, he is not happy with his own record producer and offered music that didn't make the cut on his CD for free. So why put out an CD at all, i don't understand it. Probably the same goes for Ricardo's CD sales.

Are the CDs vanity pieces? Do they cover the cost of production? Maybe someone else paid the freight and didn't get a decent return on investment. I suspect it is a lot more complicated than I have portrayed, apologies in advance for the simplicity I am presenting. Maybe CDs are made as part of fan merchandise, as that is the expectation. Modern technology has allowed CDs to be produced cheaply, so the sword cuts both ways. Man I am rambling!

The current system is not that old, with mega record companies controlling the shots and only selected musicians making it. What, it dates back less than 100 years. Music has been around for ages and musicians have made livings before the current system and they will make money with whatever comes after. Anyways, I also argued for the 10 cent track.

The most exposure Jason gets is youtube and I bet he is very proud to have it, over 1,000,000 hits. Grisha is also very proud of that, and is part of what allows him to be a successful touring artists. What do you think puts bums in his seats and attracts people to his lessons? The free access to find out what he is about and the word of mouth.

Anyways, I am not cheap, I have put my own money up here in this forum and I attend flamenco concerts, local shows, flamenco school productions, purchase flamenco lessons, support local artists, purchase guitars from local luthiers, and all that. I even buy flamenco CDs.

I think this is an important issue and worth exploring. I don't think we should restrict discussions on this topic. It is very relevant to our lives and you can't hide from what is going on all around you.

Finally, if Jason, Grisha or Ricardo or other Foro Flamenco alumni ever make it up here to Vancouver, I will be supporting them with my own cash also.



cathulu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 16:07:13)

Hi Ron, the whole issue is a lot more complicated than portraying it as "theft".

What about recording a TV show for later viewing? That was considered theft at one time. When Video Recorders came out there was a fight to prevent them from being used - went to the US Supreme Court if my memory holds correct. Where would we be if the Court ruled the other way.

What about photocopying a page from a book from a library. Fair use, no? Or is that theft? Undoubtably someone considered that theft at one time, but public fair use overruled it. Now what mindset caused that to happen? If mindsets can change, what does the future hold?

What about making a copy of your protected CD or movie so you can preserve it from scratches or damage. Theft? That is fair use imho but illegal in the US per the DMCA as I understand it.

What about trading cassettes of songs you made with your friends. That was theft?

Anyways, in Canada we have a recording media levy to compensate artists for copying/downloading. How much money has been collected and where does that money go, that is what I want to know.

In Canada it is legal to borrow a CD from a Public Library and listen to it. Can you do that in Scotland? I would guess yes. Is that theft? No CD sale to the artist as a result of that. Also, in Canada it is legal to make a recording of that borrowed CD believe it or not. Is that also true in Scotland?

It is a very complex issue. And what about when the Artist is dead, how long to wait until it is in the free domain? I believe the US has recently increased the time period, people will have to wait longer...



KMMI77 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 16:54:06)

quote:

If you can't afford it, then less is good IMO...(and will do you good actually!)


I agree Ron, I remember when i only had a few records and tapes. I don't remember getting sick of them and tried to work out every bit. Now i have so much and i find it difficult to concentrate on one thing. I start working on something, get distracted by another idea and then switch to that one.

It is an advantage to have access to so much but it can create a bit of an overload. It also seems to create less appreciation for some ones hard work, time or music. I think there is a balance. I am happy to pay for good CD's or transcriptions.



sean65 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 23:32:39)

There's some really strange blinkered arguments here. I guess if you're doing a job that doesn't involve protecting your intellectual property then that's to be expected.

quote:

but public fair use overruled it


LOL. OK well let's just keep helping ourselves to everything and then in 20 years when there's no books in the shops or music being recorded or films in the cinemas, then we can all sit around thinking " Oh dear, maybe we got a bit greedy"

Just like our idiot bankers are doing today.



edguerin -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 27 2010 8:47:30)

quote:

I agree completely with Ed

I would NEVER EVER consider doing something like that !



Ron.M -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 27 2010 9:22:53)

quote:

quote:

I agree completely with Ed


I would NEVER EVER consider doing something like that !


Oh yeah?

And any club that would accept me as a member, I wouldn't want to join.



srshea -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 27 2010 11:05:56)

Hey, Chris

I got a little aggressive and strident in my screed up above, so I appreciate your not taking it personally.

Uuuuh….. this topic isn’t something that I’m interested in spending too much time on, but I’ll sum up my feelings by saying that in the specific, flamenco context of this discussion, downloading CDs instead of paying for them directly affects the artists who make them, not to mention outlets like Flamenco Connection here in the U.S., or esflamenco, or flamenco-world who make available A LOT of music that would be next to impossible to find elsewhere. I don’t see any gray area there.



Ron.M -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 27 2010 11:29:39)

quote:

Hi Ron, the whole issue is a lot more complicated than portraying it as "theft".


I would agree there Cathulu...

Well here in the UK, we have to pay for a TV license and we pay for the commercial stations by watching the adverts, which pays the artist's fee.
So time-shifting a program or taping it for my own use never gave me any concern.

It also doesn't bother me about folk making a copy of an album for a friend etc.

What does concern me though, are people posting links to free websites which have complete albums and films and making them available to anyone at all worldwide.

This is basically unsustainable in the long run....

It's not my problem though and it's up to the recording and film industry to work out a better method of music and movie distribution.
The Executives and Directors there get paid well enough...so it's about time they started working for their money IMO, instead of sitting back and letting the dough pour in as they have done in the past.

As for the Flamenco artists?

Most of them are pretty small-time in the league of record sales, with many of them on small, independent or their own labels.

We can't put them in the same bag as The Rolling Stones or Madonna...

So when I buy a small-label Flamenco CD, then I feel it's like saying "thanks" to the Artist.

It's a precarious industry, and although the particular artist might be going through a good patch ATM, there is no certainty about the future whatsoever.

Play the game. Don't steal from those people.

cheers,

Ron



cathulu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 27 2010 16:25:31)

Thanks Adam!

Hey Ron, that is a good way to put it. When I buy a CD, it is saying "thanks to the artist". That is the way I consider it.

At any rate, I don't advocate illegaly downloading, but I do think their needs to be a balanced system that recognizes everyone's rights, the artists and the consumers - not just the big corporate monopolies.

Anyways, I have said my piece. I don't even know what I am saying sometimes! I think that has come out here most obviously! [:D]



Munin -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Mar. 7 2010 16:44:07)

I once bought the Graf-Martinez beginner DVD course when I was just starting out. I thought it was absolutely terrible (from a musical standpoint at least). Now I wish I would have spent the money on the Nunez Encuentro DVD or something like that.

I think there can be a middle path, you can download stuff to try it, especially with flamenco there is a LOT of questionable stuff out there, and so much of it is expensive too. And then you can still decide to buy it. I find that pretty acceptable.

It's a shame that piracy of learning material is SO widespread in the flamenco internet community, but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there are so many younger people who want to learn this, as well as many being from somewhat poorer countries - i.e. Latin American countries, etc.



michel -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Mar. 7 2010 23:21:16)

quote:

I wish I would have spent the money on the Nunez Encuentro DVD
i understand what you mean. I bought the Nunez Encuentro DVD + Book which is excellent, especially the technical part. One negative point about the Nunez-Book to me was that almost every composition in the book requires alternative tuning. as an intermediate player i'd have like to see what he plays with normal tuning...



gshaviv -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Mar. 8 2010 1:52:10)

quote:

I bought the Nunez Encuentro DVD + Book which is excellent, especially the technical part. One negative point about the Nunez-Book to me was that almost every composition in the book requires alternative tuning. as an intermediate player i'd have like to see what he plays with normal tuning...


Yep, I bought it too, and that's exactly the complaint I have about the book. It makes it very hard to impossible to use the material when combining falsetas from various sources. Had I known this before buying I may have not bought it. But not having a flamenco store in my neighborhood, bought the book online so you don't get a peek at it before buying...



michel -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Mar. 8 2010 10:35:07)

exactly guy, these "alternative tuning" compositions are pioneer works from Gerardo that are meant for more advanced players IMO, for people looking for new ways to compose in flamenco. Anyway his DVD was a great motivation and i spent much time to connect the two beautiful pulgar exercices into one piece. I played page 22 to 24 (1/2) writing out the chords/harmonies (kozz also did that, he was so kind to upload his version ) and adding improvised scale runs to the given chord transition (good refreshing for me as ex-jazzguitarist) and ending with the "fingerkiller" page 20 to 21, sounds way cool.



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (Apr. 27 2010 5:33:16)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:15:33



Arash -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 6:50:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M.S.A.


Advice fromthe other side... If I was some kind of virtual society consisting of all companies involved in resistance against illegal downloads, I woul deffinitely contact Microsoft and finance any possible ways how to implement countermeasures within the operating systems, which would automatically disable any attempts to download by using the old ways...


technially not possible imo.

besides, microsoft is not the only company who provides OS.
you could easily install linux or something else for free (as a second OS on your PC), then download, copy or do whatever you want to do.

and i also think that microsoft only cares about his own intellectual property and not those from others.
they would loose a lot of customers if they would implement some kind of internet police techniques.
people don't like such things. that would cause anger and revolutionary kind of behaviour. specially young users hate too much rules and control in such things



XXX -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 7:39:47)

Prosecution is per se possible, they can tap your line and probably even computer, looking into data etc... in fact they are doing it already regarding illegal porn (if there are hints). But it seems to be impossible to detect all or even many illegal downloads. It could be possible to restrict those companies who produce OSs to only allow legal downloads, but that would mean a violation of privacy laws. They could change the law accordingly and then might even do it.

Regarding illegal programs, there are many free ones that can replace the paid ones nowadays. I cant see myself purchasing a several hundreds dollar program which i only use 3 times a year for recording anyway.

Regarding everything else, i think prices will drop a little more, the whole online media/mp3 market is underdeveloped IMO. BTW i just recently found out that i can download from iTunes for 1€ per piece. I always thought this is only for Ipod users (i dont have Ipod). Thats a fair price. I remember having paid 27(!)€ for Antonio Rey's album when it came out (10€ for shipping).



cathulu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 9:10:35)

Yes, better encryption and protection to take away fair use! Lets reinstall the Sony rootkit! [>:]



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (Apr. 27 2010 9:25:04)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:15:45



Florian -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 9:42:20)

quote:

Oh yeah?

And any club that would accept me as a member, I wouldn't want to join.



[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
thats got to be the funnyest thing i heard this year...now i just got to think of a way to sneak it into a conversation with my friends ....



Escribano -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 10:54:41)

quote:

just wait, what's gonna happen with whole Euro-zone in several months... guys, if you're from Europe, change your nickles for gold asap!!!


Unfortunately, I believe you're right. Won't be long before the Euro is 1.5 GBP again or even more. Assuming the UK £ can stay put as well - which is doubtful looking at the sorry lot we have to choose from to "elect".



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (Apr. 27 2010 11:49:14)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:17:00



Ron.M -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 12:14:00)

quote:

but gold. that will not lose the original value.


Or a quality Luthier guitar.

And is much more fun!

(And probably more stable in maintaining value than Gold)

cheers,

Ron



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (Apr. 27 2010 12:34:29)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:17:18



Ron.M -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 12:44:47)

Oh, I dunno MSA...

Gold was in the doldrums for quite a while and will probably return that way after the panic is over. (don't buy at a high price!)

"Sunflowers" hasn't really lost all that much in value over the decades...or a decent Picasso...

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 19:21:28)

quote:

flamenco artist so as the other pop artists, are still earning an incredible money by their live performances, so they DO NOT DEPEND ON SALE OF THEIR CD'S.


I learned about this stuff in school, and it was made clear to us at that time this all would happen in the future. So I patiently waited to make my own CD, cutting the middle man, and using the net for advert. I keep 100% of the money from selling it, and honestly, I DO need it. I have seen it play out litterally, where I don't have money for food or gas, then bam, someone buys a CD and I got $20 in my pocket. At the same time you can see me play for free on youtube some stuff on my CD, or download your fav track for $0.99...and CD baby or Itunes only give me a percentage of that...but I don't care. In fact I don't care if a majority of the folks are sharing my tracks free. Why?

Well, I always get asked to share stuff I have on my Ipod for free with friends, but I don't do it so easy. When they push me then I let them have the reason, and it is not pretty.

Ok, forget about the money and all that. When I listen to music, I like to have the Disc and the booklet and the case, and all that. I used to like Records, then Tapes but tapes where not always so great cuz they were small but I prefered the orginal to copies cuz of th booklets. And CD's are perfect like records but a little smaller.

OK, so I don't download anything music for that reason. And all the kids and folks that share or download, don't listen even to music the way I did and still do. They can't , the just can't get into it the same way IMO, they don't CARE ENOUGH ABOUT IT, and that is how I feel. Sorry to all the poor people out there but I DONT CARE. If it really matters to you, you find a way to collect this stuff.

So I reserve the right to sell my CD to who I want for what price I want OR NOT! And in fact I have gotten bad vibes from potential customers for letting them take my CD home. "YOu want HOW MUCH??? jeez 20 bucks it better be good....".... I have been tried to get talked down and when I am not in the mood I say "sorry not for sale". Because this thing is not just for making money. It is a long term investment. I dont' have time for people that want things cheap and fast and easy. They don't need my music. They can see it for free on youtuve or download it. One day all the discs will be gone, and who knows if I will reproduce it or not. For now it is a calling card and some gas and food on occasion.

But record companies, who cares. We learned the internet was gonna kill those big business but the artists, the real artists, would benefit and have more control over their own stuff.

Ricardo



Arash -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 27 2010 23:54:21)

What do you guys think about this?

2 years ago, i bought some original Paco CDs second hand on ebay.

They are original, but the artist don't get any additional money for it.
They sold it only once to the first owner.

So, the result for the Artist is same as downloading, even though i did nothing illegal lol

Solution: They must do something like "Cash for Clunkers"

You give back your old paco CD, and you get the new outcoming CD cheaper lol



Arash -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Apr. 28 2010 0:40:18)

edit: wrong thread



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