Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Full Version)

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yohan -> Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 10:06:36)

Actually I do download a lot of flamenco tabs and books.
Just to learn some new things or get some inspiration.
Do you download illegal?
Do you thinks flamenco books, like the encuentro series, are too expensive?
Or is downloading disrespectful to the artists?
Let me know what u guys think [:)]



Stoney -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 10:19:40)

I download everything I can get my hands on. My reasoning is simple.

1. It's not available in any stores where I live.
2. I'm poor.
3. I don't use or have a credit card but if I did I don't have any confidence in the security measures in place for internet shopping. I've been cloned before.

Aside from that, over the years I have spent a fortune on books and CDs etc. that have not delivered. CDs with one good track and 9 filler tracks. Instructional books that are utter garbage. So, what goes around comes around.


I figure if an artist is worth his weight, downloading wont' hurt them in the long run. And if downloading makes the longevity of a fluff artist like Britney any less, it's a blessing there too.

Is it theft? Not if you are just getting a digital copy of an item that you have already paid for. For example, the JM vid system. Had it on VHS, don't have it now. I can sleep with no problems after having downloaded it.

Stoney



gj Michelob -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 11:20:21)

Gentlemen, with the greatest respect for the candid disclosure you choose to share, may I recommend that you should not post here, nor generally on the internet, your confessions of any illegal or dishonest conduct. You may certainly express your views on whether such misconduct should be permitted, but I would refrain from openly admitting to it.

Naturally, however, should you feel strongly about taking responsibility for such acts, as perhaps a way to revolt against current law, please do as you wish, at your own peril.

I trust no one will misunderstand the caring inclination of my comment and advice.



Escribano -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 11:32:30)

May I politely draw your attention to the forum agreement:

quote:

that you shall not:
Upload, or otherwise make available, files that contain images, photographs, software or other material protected by (i) intellectual property laws, including, by way of example, and not as limitation, copyright or trademark laws or (ii) by rights of privacy or publicity, if any unless you own or control the rights thereto or have received all necessary consents to do the same.


So please do not post any links or other sources as references in this discussion.



Stoney -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 12:13:43)

quote:

you should not post here, nor generally on the internet, your confessions of any illegal or dishonest conduct.


Not to worry gentlemen, I don't believe there was any intention to post links to any questionable material.

As for illegal or dishonest conduct, both those concepts are relevant to laws of the country you live in and your own personal moral code. On both counts, I'm good with my country and god, thanks for your concern.

Stoney



michel -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 12:21:43)

i have found my way, i download sometimes, as soon as i begin to look at it closer and even if i just work with it for three minutes, i grab a few bucks and go straight to the store and buy it, it's as easy as pie.

to me a base of flamenco is honour.



gj Michelob -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 12:35:36)

quote:

As for illegal or dishonest conduct, both those concepts are relevant to laws of the country you live in


A court's jurisdiction to entertain an action for tortous conduct or criminal offense, is slightly more complex and less congenial than the way you see it, Stoney..... but I respect your position.



sean65 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 12:41:06)

quote:

Or is downloading disrespectful to the artists?


Absolutely.

I'm a photographer and my pictures are regularly stolen and used all over the internet. I'll never see a penny for any of the illegal publication of my own pictures.

Same with books, same with music, software the lot

But at the same time I have to admit we are now faced with an entire generation who think everything is for free.

There are sites though that offer some free downloads of Flamenco tabs so when you see these then help yourself and appreciate that someone spent good time and effort producing the transcript and they are happy for you to download it for free.



XXX -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 13:13:22)

Isnt copying somebody a CD just as illegal as downloading it?



kozz -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 13:16:12)

quote:


A court's jurisdiction to entertain an action for tortous conduct or criminal offense, is slightly more complex and less congenial than the way you see it, Stoney..... but I respect your position.


GJ,
what happens if you have downloaded something, and you enjoyed it so much, you actually buy the product. Then all of a sudden the download police knocks at your door and you still have the downloaded version on your PC but also the bought CD's / DVD in your house?



flybynight -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 13:32:05)

I think there's a lot to be said for media companies allowing a certain amount of material to be 'deliberately left' on youtube etc., to bait customers into listening to something new, then paying for it.

I mean, how many of us have been in 'receipt of stolen goods' (ie watched a copyrighted paco vid on youtube) ?

I would never have got into flamenco, had all this great material not been on youtube, and the flamenco community has benefited, as I have bought tons of stuff in the last few years.

Is admitting you have watched a paco vid on youtube admission that you are a thief ? Talk about shades of grey..



gj Michelob -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 14:52:16)

quote:

GJ,
what happens if you have downloaded something, and you enjoyed it so much, you actually buy the product. Then all of a sudden the download police knocks at your door and you still have the downloaded version on your PC but also the bought CD's / DVD in your house?


It would serve as a "mitigating factor".

In general, I am not trying to police anyone's behavior, gentelmen, nor am I debating the rules regarding use and abuse of copyrighted work available on the internet... I am simply advising against drafting and posting one's "confession" at a time when the described and confessed to conduct does constitute an unlawful conduct.

I watch anything made available on youtube and sadly dispair when the Service Provider is forced to withhold and remove some of my favorite videos. Yet I appreciate that the ISP's ability to promptly remove unlawfully obtained material supports its right to share so much work and entertainment. The times they are a-changing, but until we figure out exactly how they will change and setlle, just be cautious [;)]



sean65 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 15:11:25)

If it's music you're after use Spotify.

You're just listening online and not downloading anything. It's great.

Once I've listened to an album a few times I'll decide if it's worth buying then go get the CD as I prefer the (slightly) better quality through the stereo system.[8D]



Spencer -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 24 2010 18:04:58)

Thanks to the Bay of Evil, (am I allowed to mention it?) you can get just about anything, no matter where you live, and often at bargain basement prices.

I have bought all my learning material (Graf-Martinez books and DVD's (vol 1 & 2), Juan Martin, Koster, and others), many (too many) CD's and even a great second hand flamenco guitar. None of these are available inside a 1500 km radius (assuming I could get them in Sydney?).



yohan -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 25 2010 11:12:03)

@michelob: you serious?[:D]
@admin : I didn't start this topic to share illegal stuff [:)]

I was just curious if I'm the only one who downloads sometimes illegal flamenco books and videos. Most important reason for me is that flamenco things, like books are really hard to get in my country. But I do buy books sometimes, that are worth it, for example paco pena's toques flamencos (learned al lot of pieces from that book).
Some encuentro videos/books I just watched one time and delete them afterwards. videos that i'll never buy

[btw i might be mistaken but its legal to download illegal things in my country, its only illegal to upload illegal content, (im not shure tough)]



sean65 -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 25 2010 12:05:46)

quote:

btw i might be mistaken but its legal to download illegal things in my country, its only illegal to upload illegal content, (im not shure tough)]


That's interesting. What country do you live in?



HolyEvil -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 25 2010 15:50:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rugboots

Thanks to the Bay of Evil, (am I allowed to mention it?) you can get just about anything, no matter where you live, and often at bargain basement prices.

I have bought all my learning material (Graf-Martinez books and DVD's (vol 1 & 2), Juan Martin, Koster, and others), many (too many) CD's and even a great second hand flamenco guitar. None of these are available inside a 1500 km radius (assuming I could get them in Sydney?).



Hey mate, where in syd r u located at? I'm also in syd, do you classes from anyone/place???

Cheers



cathulu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 25 2010 17:14:56)

Regarding downloading and uploading, in Canada it is still an unresolved issue. The government is trying to update our copyright act to something like the US IMPERIALISTIC DMCA but there are many opponents and it is getting no where. It is very difficult to find the balance point and still allow fair use.

Basically things are moving faster than people can write the laws. Personal downloading and uploading is basically ignored, like consuming marijuana for personal use. So as long as you are doing it for your own use, no worries. It is defacto legal, in fact I believe it is legal in Canada. You might get an email from your ISP regarding your upload and download activity, asking you to check your system due to high traffic, or purchase a better ISP plan that allows more downloading!

My personal feeling is that it is OK to download music, as artists can tour and make money in concerts and fan related merchandise. That is a very profitable business, and many new artists want there stuff out there for FREE so they can grow a fan base and profit from that. Then, when the whiff of money gets in their noses, after giving it away for FREE and getting to the point when they make money, they want even more money and try and stop the free stuff. Well it is too late by then! You can' have it both ways.

Lets face it, ITUNES wants a buck for a song with almost zero distribution costs and crappy quality. Come on. Charge 10 cents with good quality downloads and you will make money and very much diminish illegal downloading in my opinion.

People will still pay for the option of nice CD and booklets with good designs and lots of information and material. So that market can thrive if you put a decent effort into it to attract fans. Sticking a crappy cover on a CD is not good enough.

Now downloading movies, that is a bit of a toughy, there is no touring option. But with 3D maybe that is the difference that will draw people back into the theatres.

I guess Flamenco educational material is in the same boat as downloading movies. Still, interest in learning leads to fandom and more concert and fan merchandise. Basically to get money more is required then just instructional videos. You have to offer a lot more if you want to succeed. Jason does that, while not perfect in all aspects, it is in the right direction.

I think most people have downloaded something, illegal or in the gray area. At least once.

A friend of mine, totally music anti-downloading for years, downloads TV shows big time now. He sees the irony of it all now, and has relaxed his criticisms. He just has gotten realistic imho.

Me, I am a realist. It is happening all around us and I will not cast a stone.



Güiro -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 25 2010 19:21:41)

quote:



quote:

that you shall not:
Upload, or otherwise make available, files that contain images, photographs, software or other material protected by (i) intellectual property laws, including, by way of example, and not as limitation, copyright or trademark laws or (ii) by rights of privacy or publicity, if any unless you own or control the rights thereto or have received all necessary consents to do the same.


does this apply to avatars as well?



Stu -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 3:12:56)

Hey,..... anyone ever murder someone???

or beat up an old lady???


...[;)]



kozz -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 3:22:02)

quote:

It would serve as a "mitigating factor".


Thanks GJ,
I had to look it up :)
another nice word added to my dictionary.

Its hard to get your head around. One way it can serve as a huge advertisment medium, on the other hand the total opposite.

Personaly it has already costed me a lot of money....if I seeing something nice I want to have it, to touch it to feel it.
A sort of emotional bonding.

Thats why I still like records so much...you have to walk to the player to turn the record...(is this actually active listening [:D])

But mainly, the downlaod media, acts as a medium for grabbing as much as you can and skipping as quickly through all the songs you have. Being happy you got it, but not really enjoying an album anymore,...of course all IMO.



michel -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 3:33:46)

quote:

Being happy you got it, but not really enjoying an album anymore
so true kozz, listening to something new you want to discover requires also attention and patience, having more does not necessarily mean enjoying more.

An other example are scores, well it's nice to download someting, and then? once have to practice in front of the PC and stop playing for scrolling down, or printing it, ink-cartridges are expensive too btw. and it's not confortable to have hundreds of loose A4-sheets flying around in the room, it's not my thing, that's why i prefer buying books.

I like records too. I've heard you can also digitalize them easily with portable recorders like a ZOOM. I have a huge collection of jazz records from the early ECM-label



Escribano -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 3:44:16)

quote:

does this apply to avatars as well?


[:D][:D][:D] Did you try an upload a new one or lose the one you had all along? It may have got lost when I moved the site. Let me know and I'll take a look.



Escribano -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 3:50:10)

quote:

Me, I am a realist. It is happening all around us and I will not cast a stone.


But then you are not hosting this forum, hence my rules, which are also the rules of the ISP - to such an extent that I had to get their permission to move our audio/uploads over here i.e. prove that this is not an illegal file sharing site.

So it is not a just a philosophical argument. [:D]



Stoney -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 5:52:35)

quote:

So it is not a just a philosophical argument.


I am sure that everyone understands that and doesn't expect nor would want the site to be closed due to any violation, nor would they purposely post anything here to jeapardize the site.

On the topic of the moral or legal side, what about a company, let's call them Soony, that produces music, movies, technology - computers and CD, DVD burners, and blank CDs and DVDs. They and others are pushing for laws to monitor piracy while at the same time profiting from that very activity. It's nothing more than invasion of privacy and high class extorsion.

And YEAH for Canada. Instead of bending to the pressure of big business they protect the rights of Canadians by not allowing their ISPs to release records of their internet usage. As a matter of fact, Canada is a country where, instead of instilling a false "patriotism" by indoctrinating children with a Ra Ra Ra mentality, they teach that activism and civil disobedience are "Patriotic Acts" and thus opposing the government and big business is an integral part of democracy and is to be respected.

The issue is huge. If all big business were fair I would say don't download anything, but since they are anything but fair, the internet gives the power to the general public to balance the books. And no amount of legislature is ever going to catch up. Decentralized networks like torrents and FTPs mean that they would literally have to monitor every file ever transferred from every server in the world. Good luck with that.

Stoney



n85ae -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 6:38:41)

Downloading illegal tabs, and illegal music, is kind of like downloading porn.
If you don't go around saying your doing it, and you don't get caught then
likely not gonna come back and bite you.

Myself, the stuff I really like, I buy. Beyond that, what I do is my business.

Jeff



HemeolaMan -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 7:21:17)

In My Opinion...

As someone who used to be okay with downloading illegally, I prefer the legal route.

Here's why: I spent a few thousand on recording an album. I don't want to throw away money on something someone will take for free.

And furthermore, why should music be free? It is a service, it is an art. It's like going to a lumber mill to get some things sawn and then complaining that they charge you...could you have done it yourself? NO. so why gripe about paying for it. At least you didnt have to go out and buy the saw.

From a more practical and less idealistic standpoint, most illegal downloads are Bullsh*t quality. iTunes is too. but Amazon offers downloads for like 89 cents and they are at least 256k. Usually for about ten bucks I can just buy the album, along with other stuff I need and qualify for free shipping! All it is is strategically timing my purchases...kinda like going to the grocery store and getting a weeks food all at once, vs. going and buying stuff piece by piece.

Furthermore, my favorite artist and the one i most identify with is having financial troubles! yes even people who have sold thousands of records are defaulting on loans, and mowing lawns for an extra buck.

I don't want to be broke. I don't want them to be broke. If he goes broke, then I don't get more of his music and he ends up mowing lawns. Simple.



Ricardo -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 7:44:44)

Over the years I have spent a lot of cash on flamenco stuff. And i did so both for love of it, and to learn. When I was young and broke, I saved up to buy a transcription book, or encuentro vid, or CD, and I took my time listening and watching or whatever. Not until I had devoured the info had I saved enough money for more stuff.

Nowadays I see alot of people who have downloaded more free stuff then they have time to listen to ONCE!!! And guess what, they don't know even what to listen to and can't learn unfortunately. So I say you get and APPRECIATE what you pay for.[;)]



Estevan -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 8:24:33)

quote:

As a matter of fact, Canada is a country where, instead of instilling a false "patriotism" by indoctrinating children with a Ra Ra Ra mentality, they teach that activism and civil disobedience are "Patriotic Acts" and thus opposing the government and big business is an integral part of democracy and is to be respected.

You've been away for a long time



edguerin -> RE: Do you download illegal flamenco tabs/videos? (Feb. 26 2010 9:27:30)

I would NEVER EVER consider doing something like that !



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