Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Classical Guitar for the Flamenco Guitarist   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

Classical Guitar for the Flamenco Gu... 

I am wondering how many players here have a background in classical guitar. Aside from the obvious advantage of being able to read, would you recommend classical guitar lessons to someone interested in Flamenco guitar?

I have nothing against the classical style and wouldn't mind adding a few pieces to my repetoire.

I ask because there is absolutely no Flamenco teachers where I am. I have more resource material than I need yet I still feel something is missing.

The price for classes is excellent (less than $10 an hour and includes 1 hour a week on the instrument and 1 hour a week in theory, ear training etc. etc. given via interactive computer simulations and software. )

It is a Yamaha school and I hear their method is well respected.

I'm not about to go 100% the classical route and don't want to adopt a classical regimen. Will this help my playing?

Stoney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 8:40:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I have classical background of sorts, and I recommend NOT taking classical lessons at all if you are interested seriously in flamenco.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 8:46:33
 
Randal

Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I totally concur with Ricardo. My background is classical guitar.

However, this does not mean that you can't pick up some pieces to play outside of the flamenco repertoire; this can be a nice diversion if you at times desire something to "take the edge off." Albeniz, Tarrega, Sor...all sound nice on flameco guitar, and of course there is some crossover in technique . My personal favorite music to play on guitar other than flamenco is Bach, Satie, and bossa nova.

_____________________________

http://www.myspace.com/birdtranescoenow

Why bother? -John Cage
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 8:54:03
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

LOL thats funny. I have no classical background, i have no background at all, but in the beginning I have had lessons for several months with an "allround"-guitarrist (rock, blues, classical), but we mainly went through very basic arpeggio technique. For that we used classical music, but it was very basic coz i was very beginner. Parallel to the lessons i taught myself the flamenco techniques. After i stopped lessons i noticed a downfall in my flamenco technique. Downfall is actually wrong, i just develop much slower than i developed back then.

I would say taking lessons is always better than not, but it has to be an open minded guy towards flamenco technique. Genuine classical guitar lessons will only get in the way to your flamenco techniques.
edit: i want to disagree with Randal. Classical technique has nothing to do with flamenco. We want a different sound, different feel, different attack.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:02:42
 
Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

have classical background of sorts, and I recommend NOT taking classical lessons at all if you are interested seriously in flamenco.


So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall.

Explain please.

Stoney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:18:30
 
Randal

Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

Roughly speaking, it's the difference between violin and fiddle: flamenco is a specific repertoire of technique that sometimes conflicts with classical approach. Unless you care to spend time sorting between them--which is fine if you have the time and wherewithal--if you want to play flamenco, flamenco is what you should play.

While I think my background studying classical helps me in many ways, I find that I must refine my style of playing, naturally, for proper flamenco technique. For example, there is a slight but fundamental difference in wrist position. In classical, wrist position is everything. The classical position impedes flamenco technique. For me, while I can adjust pretty quickly--I've learned many styles of playing including fiddle, banjo, and various other guitar styles...--it still takes time to "re-learn." you may or may not make adjustment easily, but it takes time and energy to do this. Generally, you want to develop fundamental technique in one or another separately, not simultaneously. Les confusing, and better for muscle memory.

_____________________________

http://www.myspace.com/birdtranescoenow

Why bother? -John Cage
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:33:35
 
Arash

Posts: 4463
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney

quote:

have classical background of sorts, and I recommend NOT taking classical lessons at all if you are interested seriously in flamenco.


So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall.

Explain please.

Stoney


i guess what he means is not that learning to read, theory, etc. is bad.

but taking classic guitar classes (where you have to play with your instrument completely different technique and style) is not so good and can even be detrimental, specially if you say that you want to do that, because you can't find a flamenco teacher, which sounds like a replacement !

i would rather take online flamenco lessons, than taking classic guitar lessons with a teacher in your town.

it would be the same, if you would ask a classical guitar player, if he should take flamenco lessons just because there is no classical teacher around. he shouldn't do that.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:46:40
 
Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I suppose my main interest is to learn to read music really well and then get out.

I find myself in a position that aside from a few technique difficulties, my main area of distress is inventing and adapting falsetas. I come up with something and I'm not sure if it is in compas or not.

Being able to break it down 100% via note value etc. etc. would fix that problem.

As far as technique is concerned, I just don't see classical getting in the way of Flamenco, I could however see Flamenco getting in the way of classical as in overpowering it. I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

Stoney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:53:36
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney
I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.



Oh you mean, "Rasgwhaadoo"

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:55:57
 
chapman_g

 

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Randal

If you want to learn some classical guitar pieces and techniques because you think you need somebody to teach you something on the guitar, and you can't find a flamenco teacher, and you also like some classical guitar pieces then there is no problem. Ttake the class and see if it is working for you.

If however, you are hoping to improve and build you flamenco skills by doing that then you are mistaken. If no flamenco teacher, but your real aim is flamenco guitar delve into video and recordings and youtube and use your ears and eyes and study as best as you can with what you have, and any time you hear about flamenco performance or workshops anywhere close to your area go see what you could learn focusing mostly and getting to understand and execute that basic rhythmic strumming for the various palos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 9:57:07
 
Randal

Posts: 63
Joined: Jan. 29 2010
From: Missoula, MT

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

I suppose my main interest is to learn to read music really well and then get out.

...

As far as technique is concerned, I just don't see classical getting in the way of Flamenco, I could however see Flamenco getting in the way of classical as in overpowering it. I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.


You certainly can study reading without interfering with developing flamenco technique.

Pertaining to the second point, it is something you might notice later, and at that point it may be more problematic. Either way, you won't know until you devote time and energy to develop proficiency to discern between the two techniques, which detracts from one or the other. An astute with enough eye and ear for detail can navigate these waters, and hopefully, an apt teacher may help. But I'm afraid that there are a great many who may not, and this will further complicate your learning.

_____________________________

http://www.myspace.com/birdtranescoenow

Why bother? -John Cage
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:00:23
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Arash

quote:

it would be the same, if you would ask a classical guitar player, if he should take flamenco lessons just because there is no classical teacher around. he shouldn't do that.
That's a good point to make. I'll venture to guess that the vast majority of classical guitar teachers will scoff at the notion of an eager beginning classical student to take flamenco guitar lessons as if it would do just fine. Uh-uh!

These different styles can be a nice complement to one another (Grisha and Adam del Monte are proof of this fact), but neither can ever serve as a replacement or substitute for the other.

_____________________________

Don't look at me in that tone of voice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:01:32
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to kovachian

quote:

ORIGINAL: kovachian
These different styles can be a nice complement to one another (Grisha and Adam del Monte are proof of this fact), but neither can ever serve as a replacement or substitute for the other.


Firstly i see nothing that one style "adds" to another. Sometimes flamencos use little "falsetas" from classical, like Pavan or la Catedral, but they dont start playing it the classical way. Sometimes classical guys use rasgeados but not really the flamenco way. Secondly, the observation i do is: the fact that soooo few people can play both styles in a good manner actually shows that these styles have nothing to do with each other and that you have to be a very talented player (Todd, Grisha, Monte) to master both parallel.

But if you really think learning classical is somehow advantageous for flamenco, go for it.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:10:02
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to XXX

Its a bit strange going from church straight to the corner bar for a drink.

Eventually.... I just decided that the bar was a more entertaining place to hang.

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:13:00
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Stoney

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:16:57
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

if your true goal is flamenco guitar, than playing classical guitar is just a distraction and detour from your main path.

if you want to learn how to read music, then just learn how to read music. grab a theory book. you don't need classical guitar to learn how to read.

more importantly, ear training takes a damn long time and is really hard. i'd rather focus on ear training than reading music.

and a lot of flamenco music is written in standard notation. start with that. kill two birds with one stone, learn to read and play flamenco.

there's plenty of sites teaching flamenco guitar if you don't have a flamenco guitar teacher locally. jason's site, flamenco-teacher, adam del monte's. or get some lessons via skype.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:20:31
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to XXX

quote:

Firstly i see nothing that one style "adds" to another.
Then you either read something out of my post that isn't there, or I didn't make the best choice in words. I'll just go with the latter. All I'm saying is that there is no harm in learning both styles, just don't expect one to be 'good enough' to really get the hang of the other.

_____________________________

Don't look at me in that tone of voice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:30:39
 
Arash

Posts: 4463
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito



It will not hurt you to learn classical pieces. IT WILL TO LEARN THE CLASSICAL APPROACH THOUGH SO BE CAREFUL.




the problem here is that if he takes classic guitar CLASSES (which means with a classic guitar teacher), the teacher wants him also to learn the approach (also because thats the only approach the classic guitar teacher can teach the student).

you can't tell him: look, i want you to teach me classical pieces, but please play near the bridge and with more attack, and or something

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:32:01
 
Arash

Posts: 4463
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

regarding learning both styles (classical and flamenco) seperately and parallel:

yes you can do that.

however, i think a human beeing has a limited energy, limited time and limited talent.

not everyone is Grisha.

better to focus on flamenco only (IN MY OPINION)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:37:11
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I'm not professional player, but I play ok. The other day I was showing one of my guitars to well known classical guitarist, he asked me to show him how to do the Marote triplet rasgueado.

Most classical guitarists won't be able to teach you how to get the sound playing behind the soundhole or the alzapua or rasgueados.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:38:33
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The other day I was showing one of my guitars to well known classical guitarist, he asked me to show him how to do the Marote triplet rasgueado.


Thats how it all starts.... with that Marote thing and then comes hanging with thugs, then PLC's start coming out of the guitar and there is no turning back.

Banana... cut it out. If you start showing those guys at the conservatory how to do all of our cool tricks then I will have to start wearing a tuxedo to work and I really don't want to have to do that because they look terrible with bare feet.

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 10:43:08
 
minordjango

 

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall.
.

stoney amigo , just enjoy the music , pick up a cheap book, or scores on the net, learn basic skills if u want , and it cant hurt unless ur being anal with it! i.e thinking its going to ruin things nah!!

riqueni, he writes it scores out (notation and rhythm, and maybe some people just memorize it , so check it out , try if its good thats cool.
there is some cool reeptoire from carcassi/ gN.coste - to scarlatti, ramaeu, Lauro, Barrios, dowland , to bogdanovic to dodgson.

on another post i enquired about adam del monte , he (Im my mind ) plays darn fine classical and flamenco n, see his bach recordingsr.

arron sheerer methods are cool , and fred noad , get ya started , good cheap books
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 11:10:46
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

So are you saying that learning to read and studying classical guitar music is detrimental to playing Flamenco? I mean, it's not a cult and I'm not going to be studying with Segovia so what's the harm? The advantages seem to be greater than the downfall.

Explain please.


The techniques used in classical and flamenco are different enough that for a beginner learning both is a distraction. The two also differ in their approach to music. If you are a professional, doing both is probably possible, though I would assume you would need to devote your self to one at a time.

I played classical for many years before starting flamenco. Today I don't play any classical, I find concentrating on both is more then I can handle, music is not my profession, just a hobby I do after work... and flamenco is more appealing to me at this point in life.

So I agree with those that say if you really want to learn flamenco, don't learn any classical. I would say you can try classical only after you've done a few years of flamenco, at that point you can appreciate the difference between the two to be able to separate them and not make one distract you from the other.

_____________________________

Guy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 11:15:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

Yeah the triplet rasgueado is the gateway drug to harder flamenco . That and a butt load of Carlos Montoya CD's ...........or so I am told.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 11:39:36
 
JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to estebanana

Fakemenco™ .... is also a gateway drug.....

"If you have an erection that lasts more than 4 hours call your doctor."

_____________________________

http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/
http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal
http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 11:43:03
 
Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I got my start in classical guitar, but my teachers understood the importance of
flamenco techniques for strength building. I actually learned all my flamenco techniques in music school.
I could, and still can make the guitar sound pretty but I dont put any practice time at all in the maintaining of "pretty playing".

As far as my own all-flamenco playing, the big change was to use my right thumb MUCH more than before. Some of that is strength, and some is just learning to think the right way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 12:49:42
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Arash

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 13:21:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney

I suppose my main interest is to learn to read music really well and then get out.

I find myself in a position that aside from a few technique difficulties, my main area of distress is inventing and adapting falsetas. I come up with something and I'm not sure if it is in compas or not.

Being able to break it down 100% via note value etc. etc. would fix that problem.

As far as technique is concerned, I just don't see classical getting in the way of Flamenco, I could however see Flamenco getting in the way of classical as in overpowering it. I occassionally run through Romance d'amor and I just have to throw in a rasgueado at the end.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

Stoney


Just want to point out stoney, since you have started posting here, you have a tendency to ask a good question, get a bunch of similar line answers, don's seem to like them and want to argue a little about it. Just an observation.

2 things.

1. Classical guitar method does not necessarily teach you to read WELL. Most of the time, unless in an ensemble, you end up working through a piece and going through the positions and fingerings slow. I recommend if you want to read, and this might help your flamenco better, is to find a jazz teacher and work on reading with him. REASON is there will be an emphasis on reading AND keeping time, and feeling what you read rather then just finding the notes, plus, you will get a focus on chords and scales, and how they fit together. Again you won't get that with a classical guitar teacher. Also, the jazz teacher won't care your flamenco technique or whatever method you use to play a chord or notes you are sight reading, and may think it "cool" you do it that way. He may get you start reading in the middle of the fingerboard too so you get more understanding how the fretboard is laid out, vs open position scales and such.

Classical guitar teacher of any repute will not let you get away with making "flamenco sounds" when trying to interpret a classical piece, or even just an exercise, no matter how beginner level (and especially if it is lower level). Deliberately avoiding making "flamenco sounding" strokes will affect your playing for sure.

2. Your problem with adapting falsetas, and compas, is also a rhythm problem, not to be fixed with a classical teacher. Again, perhaps a jazz teacher will get your rhythm going, and ablity to both read and improvise, and this in tern helps your creativity and ability to compose, since improvising is composing on the fly.

However, a warning is that your concept of composing flamenco and adapting your own "falsetas" of your own make is not good. That is not the way to go about progressing in flamenco (unless you want to end up on Jason's fakemenco list, then go ahead). You need to first get grounded in the traditional rhythms and falsetas, at least SOME of them that are from the masters, so you understand even HOW to compose in the style. That will take some time, and in this regard, both the classical and a jazz teacher will not be helping you. Flamenco improvisation is NOT like jazz improvisation at all.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 14:17:24
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

I have a classical background. I can tell you from a playing standpoint, that they are 2 completely different ways of playing aside from the obvious similarities. The attack is different. Classical guitarrists focus more on tone and practically live for it. I say unless you can easily adapt to one style or the other, I wouldn't recommend classical guitar lessons to someone interested in flamenco. If you do not plan to take classical seriously, then I say it can't hurt you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2010 19:25:28
 
Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

RE: Classical Guitar for the Flamenc... (in reply to Stoney

quote:

Just want to point out stoney, since you have started posting here, you have a tendency to ask a good question, get a bunch of similar line answers, don's seem to like them and want to argue a little about it. Just an observation.


Well, I would think so! (I'd say after getting a few opinons I like to discuss the reasoning rather than "argue" but I'm cool with that observation)

I probably should have known better than to post this question at all. At no time did I state that I had any plan on adapting classical technique. Ricardo's suggestion to find a Jazz teacher to learn to read seems to make sense and I will investigate that option.

However, just as I wouldn't let a Jazz teacher shove his philosopy down my throat, neither would I with a classical teacher. Regardless, it's too late for me anyway. Flamenco is like church, once you've been introduced to it, it sticks for life. Everything I do on the guitar, regardless of style always gets a Flamenco treatment. I can't help it. (and don't really want to change that anyway)

I just forgot about the prejudice against all things classical and should have left that out all together.

Stoney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2010 5:59:57
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.0625 secs.