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Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

What do you think of????? 

After all the fun on the Modern VS. Traditional thread I thought I'd get a new thread going along the lines of the "what do you think of" threads.

First off, contrary to popular belief I have no problem with nor major preference for either modern over traditional (as long as it's done well and recognizable as what it is or claims/seems to be)


That said, what do you think of (if anything) these particular groups or artists?

Nuevo Stuff

Fondo Flamenco - I love em. Great rumbas and tangos mixing in Reageaton beats etc. etc.

Ojos de Brujo - Flamenco meets RAP. (I bloody hate Rap but for some reason it works for me)

Peret - Oh my god his stuff is so bad even though he is kind of the Godfather of the rumba flamenca style. But I do love "Una chica muy guapa" and "el muerte vivo" also known as "No estaba Muerto"

Strunz and Farah - Guys who play classical or flamenco guitars with picks should stick to heavy metal.

Tradtional or Modern

Paco Peña - Love the guy. Traditional, occassionally brilliant, Misa Flamenca is a masterpiece.

Juan Serrano - What the hell is this guy doing? He goes from dead on traditional to incoherent mess. Avoid his method books.

Vicente Amigo - Always amazing, sometimes a little over the top.

Juan Martin - Can´t knock the guy who got a ton of us started on flamenco guitar (at least I can't) but there seems to be a lot of folk who look down at him. I have a few of his CDs and they are pretty cool.


In a category all by himself
Esteban - Firing Squad, immediately.

Stpney

Edit - Just an added note. I mention Vicente Amigo being over the top. I've seen a lot of flamenco, Paco de Lucia included that I considered just too much. I liked it but could easily see why Non-flamenco people are turned off. But it's usually live stuff and even possibly improvised. Maybe it was never meant to be heard twice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 10:27:07
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

quote:

Peret - Oh my god his stuff is so bad even though he is kind of the Godfather of the rumba flamenca style.


Correcto!

Everybody loved Peret in Madrid in the 70's.

Including the Flamencos I knew!

It blasted out of every bar juke box there.

It was crap, but totally unpretentious great crap and that's what made it good..

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 10:56:53
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

ok to make it short...

Fondo Flamenco: What the **** is that?

Ojos de Brujo: Not "nuevo flamenco" They are better than Ottmar and Co. I like their music very much. Not flamenco but good pop with whatever..

Peret: Who? I know a turret... but Peret? Is that a tool for the garden?

Strunz and Farah: ****. Bad bad... scale noodlers making it hard for real flamenco artists. 100% tourist flamencoish ****. Dislike it completely.

Paco Pena: This man has a stick in his ass.. His music is like Juan Martins, taken from others and boorifyed. Bad ****. Dont like his music. His CD flamenco misa killed my interest in his music completely for all time.

Juan Serrano: Boring.

Vicente Amigo: Refreshing to listen to. Interesting, inspiring. With Ojos de Brujo one of the two who are developing flamenco and not just sucking the dinero out of it while ****ting on authenticity.

Juan Marin: Provides good material for beginners in flamenco guitar. I liked his book a LOT! But his pseudo spanish accent makes him to a faker. I dislike that.

Esteban: Sanlucar? Dont have any composition in mind that was composed by him...

Firing Squad: He? Who?

immediately: What a ****ty group name...

Stpney: There a definitely vowels missing...

(EDIT: to my defense..Im just back from a business dinner and Im ****ing drunk! )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 12:26:08
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

Ojos de Brujo and/or Chambao really have some nice songs. I remember having heard a seguiriya and a very modern solea por buleria. No idea who the guitarrist was, but it was really good.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 13:34:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

Glad you thought it was "fun".

Peret I consider traditional Rumba, not Nuevo flamenco. I agree with you about vicente Amgio....everything else I disagree.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 17:08:40
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

TO STONEY -

I was a friend of Juan Serrano for years, and in my opinion - and that of the world of flamenco in general - he is one of the greatest flamenco guitarists of all time. Yes, he is "dead on traditional," but just where is the "incoherent mess?" Is there a clip I could look at where he is playing an incoherent mess? That would be very interesting. I would honestly like to see it. As for his method books, far from avoiding them, I would highly recommend them to anyone – clear, concise, fully understandable, and with traditional material that he himself has always played, not some kind of simplified, by the numbers falsetas.

TO DOITSUJIN –

If you find Juan Serrano "boring" it's probably because you find traditional concert flamenco in general boring. This seems to be borne out by your other comments, for example about Paco Pena. Paco Pena is an outstanding concert style flamenco guitarist, with all the technique in the world, who plays fine traditional flamenco, and plays it with feeling too, which is something a lot of concert flamenco guitarists don't do. As for Juan Martin, you should only have his technique. Incidentally, with regard to his "pseudo Spanish accent," the word "pseudo" means "false, not real, pretended." Are you saying that he is putting on a fake Spanish accent? I didn't know that. That is most interesting. I wonder why he would do such a thing. Do you have any reason to believe that that is the case, or any evidence to back that up. I would be interested in seeing that. Incidentally, it is my understanding that he was born and raised in Malaga, which would make Spanish his native language. How does a native Spanish speaker put on a "fake Spanish accent?"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2009 19:30:45
 
omnidrone

Posts: 5
Joined: Nov. 4 2008
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

I'm relatively new to flamenco (again) and really only listen to "The Greats" new and modern (De Lucia, Sabicas, Amigo etc....). My point is I really don't listen to enough flamenco to have an informed opinion especially with regards to some of the newer "nuevo" flamenco stuff. I do, however, have an opinion on a few things

1. Paco Pena, Juan Martin and Serrano: Thank god for these amazing players and their methods/song books. The world is a much better place with them around. Maybe not the most forward-thinking players, but staggering figures in the world of flamenco none-the-less.

2. Strunz and Farah: It really gets on my nerves that their name keep coming up in this forum. They are NOT flamenco. They are great at what they do and always have a top-notch rhythm section on their albums. I don't think they claim to be flamenco so what's the problem?

3. Esteban: I try to remain open-minded about music, but this guy....better shut-up before I say something I regret.

4. Doitsushi: You have got to be the most pretentious **** I've had the mis-fortune of coming across. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but the fact that you feel you have to insult such great artists who have contributed so much and have had such a profound influence in the world of flamenco only exposes your ignorance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 0:31:02
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

As for Juan Martin, you should only have his technique. Incidentally, with regard to his "pseudo Spanish accent," the word "pseudo" means "false, not real, pretended." Are you saying that he is putting on a fake Spanish accent? I didn't know that. That is most interesting. I wonder why he would do such a thing. Do you have any reason to believe that that is the case, or any evidence to back that up. I would be interested in seeing that.


warning: this could be contentious....

my first post on this foro was asking if anyone could prove the persistent rumours about "Juan Martin" either way.... it seems noone can, but here goes anyway....

i have known a number of people who knew "Juan Martin" in London in the late Sixties and/or Seventies, before he made it big, when they assure me he spoke with a south east England/London accent (someone else told me they saw a video of him where he spoke like this, so maybe there is evidence somewhere?).

At this time they all knew him as "Johnny Martin from Brighton".

Up until quite recently there was someone on his Wikipedia discussion page who claimed they went to school with him in East Sussex, when he was known as "Johnny Martin", but this page seems to have disappeared....

It doesn't actually say on his website, or in any of his books or biography or promotional material where he was born, it just says "native of Andalucía". You can bet if he really was born in Malaga he would trumpet it VERY LOUDLY from the rooftops, but it doesn't, it is vague.... and this is as close as anyone can get to "proving" that he isn't quite who or what he would like us all to believe he is.

Someone else told me they think he was originally from Gibralter, because he speaks Spanish like an Andaluz, which apparently is quite typical for Gibralterians.

To me none of this makes any difference to his music or his teaching materials, and they should be taken as they are and judged on their own merits.

But I think that his music is not judged on it's own merits compared to the rest of flamenco, but on what his promotional material tells people (who don't know any different) they are listening to....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 2:00:54
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to omnidrone

quote:

4. Doitsushi: You have got to be the most pretentious **** I've had the mis-fortune of coming across. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but the fact that you feel you have to insult such great artists who have contributed so much and have had such a profound influence in the world of flamenco only exposes your ignorance.


Since you're new to the forum and don't know Doitsujin well, I understand your reaction. Once you get to know him better, comments from him such as above will make you smile, I guarantee it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 3:36:17
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

With respect to Juan Martin's "fake Spanish accent," besides being a musician I was also an actor. As with all actors, one of the things I studied was foreign accents. Any given part may call for that, so you have to be able to do it. Also sometimes for commercials. There is nothing more difficult as an actor than putting on a fake accent and making it sound convincing. You only have to watch movies, TV, etc. to hear some dreadful fake accents. The first accent actors almost always learn is Spanish, because it is so widespread a language. I am American born, but of Spanish descent, and spoke fluent Spanish from the age of two or so. Still, naturally my English had no trace of any accent, so when I had to learn to put on a Spanish accent, even though I spoke Spanish, it was just as difficult for me to put on a Spanish accent, because Spanish was not my native language. So I am attuned to the nuances of accents, and I can generally tell a fake one from a real one, though you can never be entirely certain. I would only say that based on my experience, if Juan Martin's accent is fake, then he missed the boat – he should have gone on stage as an actor instead of musician.

But apart from that the question would arise – if his accent is fake, why would he bother? As I can say from personal experience, learning an accent takes years of study, just as learning almost anything else does. Why go through all that – how does it help him? His skill as a flamenco guitarist speaks for itself – as does the quality of his instructional materials. Would it really make enough difference just to pass himself off as Spanish to go through all that rigamarole?

Though entries in Wikipedia always have to be taken with a grain of salt, here is Wikipedia's entry on Juan Martin:

Juan Martín
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Juan Cristóbal Martín (born 1948, Málaga) is a Spanish flamenco guitarist [1][2] and an author of flamenco guitar method books.
·
Career
Martín started learning the guitar at the age of six. In his early twenties he moved to Madrid to study under Nino Ricardo and Paco de Lucía[3].He played in clubs in Málaga, Seville and Granada. One of his first recordings was "Picasso Portraits" (1981). Each section is a depiction of a painting by Pablo Picasso. Although it was not released until the 1990s, he recorded a track with Rory Gallagher in 1984 (on the album, Wheels Within Wheels). Also in 1984 his track "Love Theme from The Thorn Birds" reached number 10 in the UK Singles Chart.[4] He recorded with Herbie Hancock in 1987 and has played on stage with Miles Davis.[5][6]
After establishing himself amongst the Gitanos of Andalucia, Juan Martín released the successful 'El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra' which was printed in both English and Spanish. It has been reprinted seven times in various languages. The book can be bought with or without an accompaniment cd.
He divides his time between Málaga and London. One of his sons, Carlos, learned the guitar from an early age and has since experimented with fusions between electronica and flamenco under the alias of DJ Carlito,[7] specialising in drum and bass
Martín has been voted one of the top three guitarists in the world in the magazine, Guitar Player. He has an English wife, Helen. They have a family business called Flamencovision.[8][9]


This article claims that he studied with Paco de Lucia. If so, surely Paco would know if Juan Martin was actually English, and is putting on the world by passing himself off as Spanish, fake accent and all. Anything is possible - it just seems highly improbable.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 7:47:06
 
Stoney

Posts: 132
Joined: Nov. 6 2009
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

Wow, this thread got hot fast. Lot's of fun.

Pornt by point.

quote:

Yes, he is "dead on traditional," but just where is the "incoherent mess?" Is there a clip I could look at where he is playing an incoherent mess?


I don't have youtube capabilities cause it's blocked here at work but there is a bulerias in La menor on youtube that is possibly the worst Flamenco I have ever heard.

quote:

Esteban: Sanlucar? Dont have any composition in mind that was composed by him...


I don't know who Esteban Sanlucar is but I'm talking about the guy who flogs factory made guitars on the shopping channel and wears the bolero hat, claims to have studied with Segovia and plays schmaltz that makes Ottmar look like a genius. Claims to be one of only 14 guitarists endorsed by Segovia. Compared to Juan Martin's pseudo accent this is the ultimate sin and just insulting(honestly in the world of show business Juan Martin's accent is no big deal - everybody lies - hell, Tom Cruise claims to be a man!!!)

quote:

Misa Flamenca is a masterpiece.


I realize that Misa Flamenca is very low key - The brilliance to me lies in the adaptation of traditional Catholic Spanish Canticos to the Flamenco palo. Similar to Paco de Lucia adapting Bizet to Flamenco in the movie Carmen.

quote:

You have got to be the most pretentious **** I've had the mis-fortune of coming across.


I recieved a ton of e mails after the Modern vs. Traditional thread from folks who follow this site and just don't post because they feel that any opinion contrary to the majority will just get them ripped to shreds. I haven't been around here long enough to even recognize the majority of users but I think a few folks could tone it down a little.

That said, I love contrary opinions, particularly from folks that can back up their arguement. The rest can just ** **** **********.

Stoney
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 7:53:53
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

With respect to Juan Martin's "fake Spanish accent," etc. etc.


well, i dunno, the whole thing seems pretty strange....

....but i would have thought, as i said, that if he really was born in Malaga he would say so on his own website. I did just check Wiki and it doesn't seem to say the stuff you quote anymore. I actually queried the Wiki info a while ago and the source of the statement that he was born in Malaga came from a newspaper article (maybe they saw his publicity and translated "early days in Malaga" into "born in Malaga" as i'm sure we are all intended to....), do you believe everything you read in newspapers? I know i don't. i can't actually find anything concrete, anywhere, to back this up, and we all know that all flamenco artists state where they were born on their biographies.

I'm not saying his accent is fake, maybe when he was young if he really did live in the UK he "faked" an English accent to fit in.... who knows?

There are just too many stories from people who claim to have known him in London for it all to be just made up....

quote:

This article claims that he studied with Paco de Lucia.


i think the word "claims" is most significant here.... have you seen the photo of JM sitting between Paco and Ramon grinning at the camera while they both looked the other way...?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 8:06:57
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

quote:

I haven't been around here long enough to even recognize the majority of users but I think a few folks could tone it down a little.

That said, I love contrary opinions, particularly from folks that can back up their arguement. The rest can just ** **** **********.


the post that i think was most in need of toning down was the one that said

quote:

Do you smoke it or take it in the arm?


i will gladly and willingly change my opinion given sufficient evidence, but some people will just tell other people they are being "ridiculous" if they have a different point of view.....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 8:13:50
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

To Prominent C.

No.. I like traditional flamenco guitar, especially nino ricardo and ramon montoya, but not J.Serrano and Paco Penas stuff. Its boring.

quote:

" Are you saying that he is putting on a fake Spanish accent? I didn't know that. That is most interesting. I wonder why he would do such a thing. Do you have any reason to believe that that is the case, or any evidence to back that up.


If so look for older threads about Juan Martin. You will find it there.

To omni

quote:

4. Doitsushi: You have got to be the most pretentious **** I've had the mis-fortune of coming across. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but the fact that you feel you have to insult such great artists who have contributed so much and have had such a profound influence in the world of flamenco only exposes your ignorance.


? lol..
I dont know which kind of people you know. Does that also count for yourself? These Paco Pena fanboys are entertaining.

My opinion is as it is.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 8:14:32
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

quote:

I recieved a ton of e mails after the Modern vs. Traditional thread from folks who follow this site and just don't post because they feel that any opinion contrary to the majority will just get them ripped to shreds. I haven't been around here long enough to even recognize the majority of users but I think a few folks could tone it down a little.


Some people take the posts on here more seriously than others. I used to. The ones who've been around the longest can take "offensive" posts for what they are more easily. We're not discussing anyone's mother here, just musical tastes and well known artists who could probably care less. Nobody will physically rip anyone to shreds - this is an internet forum. It shouldn't get personally offensive and when it does an admin steps in.

Omni, I also think Paco Pena and Juan Serrano are boring, but even if I were a big fan I wouldn't freak about Doit's post because it has nothing to do with me. I would have even laughed at it. You however called him a pretentious **** and ignorant. That's personal and likely to start trouble, a no-go.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 8:39:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15030
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

As I said "fun" thread.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 9:41:07
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

i like the guy who is "too much" for you ,,,,, eh, i mean paco

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 11:56:00
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Arash

I don't like Paco. You stink, Arash.

I kid. There is only one God, his name is Paco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 11:58:55
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

May i recapitulate... you guys are searching for Juan Martin on Wikipedia!

edit: just a minor correction on John Os last post... its not god whose name is Paco. Its Paco whose name is god.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 11:59:22
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to XXX

I know, it's as accurate as googling for symptoms to find out what illness you have.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:00:49
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.

Come on in to the thread people, we're throwing a few more logs on the fire!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:02:32
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to XXX

quote:

Its Paco whose name is god.


That's God with a capital G, please be respectful...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:04:49
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.

This is fun

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:07:10
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

I know, it's as accurate as googling for symptoms to find out what illness you have.


Yes, that would also speak against it. If the act itself wouldnt speak against itself already.
No, seriously, in germany he is not that of a figure is he? I just heard about him here on the foro. Looking up about him is something that i dont understand. Not saying his stuff is useless, not at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:14:41
 
John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to XXX

Not really. His method books are popular among beginners. Other than that he's not really spoken about in Germany at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:17:15
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney

i have chips......but no popcorn

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:19:09
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to John O.

quote:


Since you're new to the forum and don't know Doitsujin well, I understand your reaction. Once you get to know him better, comments from him such as above will make you smile, I guarantee it


don't guaranty anything you are not sure of

i am member since years, and still, doit is always unpredictable
for instance, i think what he said in this thread is deadly serious

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:24:21
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Stoney

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:25:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Guest

well, he is clearly speaking out things, others dont even dare to think.
In my book, he gets 100 points for being honest. And another 100 for sharing my view and have the guts to speak it out for me

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:45:05
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

And another 100 for sharing my view and have the guts to speak it out for me


so , you think that paco pena has a stick up his a.... ?
Boooooo !!!!!

now we know what is going on in your modern blanca head !!
hahaha.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2009 12:54:06
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