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RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
for PromCrit, everyone else, sit back with your popcorn, go back to sleep, flip channels, play some scales, whatever we'll wake you up when we're done
quote:
You forgot to mention Paco de Lucia himself
i didn't forget, he was one half of "los chiquitos de algeciras" which was why i mentioned that stage name
The point is, everyone knows where Paco is from, that his mother is from Portugal, etc. etc. he doesn't hide anything, he doesn't make a big deal of it.
JM presents himself in his promotional publicity material as the torch bearer of some kind of pure and sacred tradition, you know, as if he were someone like Pedro Bacan or Moraito or someone. So in order to present yourself as someone like that you have to have flamenco ancestry going back generations, and grow up in Barrio Santiago or Lebrija - are you with me so far? - and if you want to appear like that you would definately state your place of birth in Andalucia in said promo stuff. But JM doesn't ("early days in Malaga") and that absence in itself is noticeable, significant - are you getting this? - why doesn't he say where he was born on his website or publicity etc.?
If this is true, it might have started out as a thing to get work in the UK by exaggerating or over-emphasising or even faking the "Spanish" and "Andaluz" thing. What i was trying to get at with my previous post about that was in the UK you often find yourself playing to an audience that has no knowledge or appreciation of flamenco, who are unable to judge based on listening to the music, and who want to know that you are "authentic" so they can let themselves like what they hear safe in the knowledge that it's the "real thing".
I don't care where he was born, or where he grew up, or which accent he started out with, i just think the guy is not completely straight up. I have never thought his accent sounded the same as other Andaluz people i have known, even ones who came over the the UK in their twenties and stayed twenty years, i have always thought that there is something not quite right about JM, his accent, his publicity, it just doesn't quite square up for me... but i could be wrong. Maybe he is English and grew up in Spain, maybe he is Spanish and grew up in England. Maybe he is Gibralterian. I just don't know, and nor does anyone else, and that's kinda odd too, I think. A copy of his birth certificate would clear it up once and for all, but you know what, i don't really care, and i'm not gonna lose any sleep over it, i just think it's worth pointing out some of this stuff to someone who has obviously never come across this info before.
There are lots of guitarists who i like who aren't Andalusian, who aren't Spanish, who are English, American, half English half Spanish, etc. etc. That really isn't the issue for me. The issue is that there is a noticeable lack of a piece of information that is only really important because it is missing and because if the context it is missing from.
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
Paco de Lucia ..... definitely no god.
the thing with this is, it's not us nobodies who think he's a god, what do we know? it's people like Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, Cañizares, practically every professional player i ever speak to, everyone looks up to Paco as a genius, yes, even Paco Peña refers to him as "the greatest flamenco guitarist"
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
the thing with this is, it's not us nobodies who think he's a god, what do we know? it's people like Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, Cañizares, practically every professional player i ever speak to, everyone looks up to Paco as a genius, yes, even Paco Peña refers to him as "the greatest flamenco guitarist"
Yeah, and I heard from some of those people that Paco was the first to use capo in flamenco, he invented alzapua, he invented iia rasgeo (except Ruben), etc. etc.
Posts: 1942
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee)
lol, absolutely :) - but he's obviously reading words and an instructional video is different by nature to a performance, this one serves its purpose well...i'd be disappointed if he had this kind of poker face during a performance too...
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Sorrry, couldn't resist. My apologies go out to all German people.
I'm part German too by the way.
Regarding Paco Pena's style, I used to find his playing boring as well, but that was before I really started listening to what he's doing.
I challenge anyone to be able to pull off his pieces with the same crisp, clean style of playing he has perfected.
Juan Serrano, I respect him for what he is, a man of his era who plays in the style of his era and he does it brilliantly I might add. It is nice to hear someone playing in the traditional style sometimes.
Jaun Martin, well I respect him for promoting flamenco, but I don't think he's "the bee's knees" as a teacher either. His books are helpful, but don't go far enough in explaining compas and rhythm. I don't know much about his older books/videos, so maybe they are better.
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee)
Conny Sommer! He's a well known percussionist in the German flamenco scene.
Don't know Fondo Flamenco, Peret or Strunz & Farah.
I have a huge respect for Paco Pena though I've heard more than once that his teaching method is very closed-minded. However I know many guitarists learned from him who are not like that, Tino Van Der Sman being one. Juan Serrano is NOT one of them. I love hearing him accompany (like on Carmen Linares' album) but I couldn't imagine getting through a solo album of his.
I didn't need Juan Martin as a beginner. Thank God.
Esteban. Get it any way you can, I say. Others pose as fortune tellers on TV.
Vicente is simply amazing. I couldn't write anything about him you all don't already know.
About the "over the top" thing. Anyone who wants to make a mark in flamenco, especially in Spain, has to define themself. Pushing the boundaries and creating new ideas is an imporant part of maintaining the art and keeping it fresh, just like in any other music. Otherwise you could just put on any old flamenco album.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
So what do you guys/gals think of this style of bulerias?
I bought this DVD/book set and was a bit disappointed. I thought it was going to be step by step instructions on traditional bulerias, but it was just this piece scored out and then broken down into falsettas and half speed recordings.
His playing is awsome, I just don't like the style of the composition much.
I find it kind of boring, not enough rhythmic excitment. I don't mean to be critical, I just am not thrilled with his compositional style.
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wannabee
So what do you guys/gals think of this style of bulerias?
I bought this DVD/book set and was a bit disappointed. I thought it was going to be step by step instructions on traditional bulerias, but it was just this piece scored out and then broken down into falsettas and half speed recordings.
His playing is awsome, I just don't like the style of the composition much.
I find it kind of boring, not enough rhythmic excitment. I don't mean to be critical, I just am not thrilled with his compositional style.
i won't comment on composition, as this is a question of taste, but he seams to be a good guitarist, with solid and good technique and maybe a great teacher (live).
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Well, let me better explain what I mean.
As a piece of music it's fine, I was just a bit disappointed that this was marketed as an instructional video for bulerias. Perhaps this says more about me and my personal tastes than anything else, but I was expecting at least a mix of some didactic compas patterns from various traditional sources. I wasn't expecting an explanation of only a single piece of music.
ORIGINAL: veet Though Adam may have been born in Israel, much of his upbringing was in Spain. His father, Dino del Monte, has spent most of his life in Madrid, and claims Sephardic Granada roots. Look up Dino's myspace page - great pics of Adam as a kid.
I did. One page I found showed his name to be Dino Kofler!
Posts: 4516
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wannabee
Well, let me better explain what I mean.
As a piece of music it's fine, I was just a bit disappointed that this was marketed as an instructional video for bulerias. Perhaps this says more about me and my personal tastes than anything else, but I was expecting at least a mix of some didactic compas patterns from various traditional sources. I wasn't expecting an explanation of only a single piece of music.
i understand what you are looking for. i guess you will have same problem with Encuentro DVDs from others like Chicuelo, etc, too.... so....do you already have the 2 DVDs from Gerhard Graf Martinez?
but WARNING ,,,,he is german (just kidding)
here is a little part of it
or look for Oscar Herrero DVDs, but he speaks spanish in them..
or jason mc guire online lessons i can recommand too
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Yes, I have the Graf-Martinez books, but I didn't get the DVD versions...
Foolish of me, I know.
I like Oscar Herrero's DVD's, I have #2 as well as lots of other books and things.
I'm taking on-line lessons from www.newlearningvision.com Adam del Monte is the instructor. He's very good, but sometimes his material is too advanced for me.
I have a problem with "paypal" so I can't take the lessons from a lot of other sites. I wish I could figure a way around this, but at the moment my hands are tied...so to speak.
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Wannabee)
quote:
So what do you guys/gals think of this style of bulerias?
Hi Wannabee - You posted this stuff up "In reply to Prominent Critic." I certainly never suggested this stuff, so I assume that reference to me was accidental. I clicked on it out of curiosity, but I had just finished dinner, and I really wanted to keep it down. Does anyone actually take this silly nonsense seriously?
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
I don't care where he was born, or where he grew up, or which accent he started out with
As I said in my last post, I don't give a good ****either. He is what he is, and he's done some good things for a lot of beginners, and he's generated interest in flamenco.
P.S. I have a sneaking suspicion that with my forty years in flamenco I don't need your "sit back with your popcorn" remark.
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Hmmm, I have not a clue how to operate this forum.
How do I reply to anyone other than to click the reply button at the bottom of the page. I am clueless....oh and did I mention that I still have no clue. *_*
back in the days when God was handing out clues, I got in the line that said glue and this problem has stuck with me ever since.
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
Here's a Paco Pena performance I enjoy. His stick doesn't seem to holding him back too much!
There's a youtube comment somewhere below about him looking like a doll but he's definitely moving his whole body when playing, even with quite some attitude at times. His sound has attack and attitude.
I really enjoyed this tientos, it has some good energy although at the very end he does look like a puppet when someone lets go of the strings.
I'd rather just ignore what I don't like and I'd say at least half of the performances I've seen have done nothing for me. At worst there was a second or two of greatness all night, at best most of but rarely all of the performance was great. That's one of the wonderful things about flamenco, a transitory glimpse of transcendence and greatness and sometimes lots of **** in between.
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
Yeah, and I heard from some of those people that Paco was the first to use capo in flamenco, he invented alzapua, he invented iia rasgeo (except Ruben), etc. etc.
are you talking about ruben or someone else? is this meant to be serious or frustrated sarcasm because someone has a different opinion to you and actually is trying to say something interesting about it and back up what they say? if it's a joke, try using these otherwise, what are you trying to say?
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Ramon Amira)
quote:
I don't need your "sit back with your popcorn" remark
i was meaning that everyone else is sitting back (with their popcorn) and watching this thread for entertainment - when the subject of JM comes up often people get upset one way or the other about him and sometimes things get a bit heated, and sometimes people resort to personal insults - not us though, we're cool! so they will all be a bit disappointed that neither of us has sunk that low and/or got ourselves banned
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mike_Kinny
quote:
the thing with this is, it's not us nobodies who think he's a god, what do we know? it's people like Tomatito, Vicente Amigo, Cañizares, practically every professional player i ever speak to, everyone looks up to Paco as a genius, yes, even Paco Peña refers to him as "the greatest flamenco guitarist"
Yeah, and I heard from some of those people that Paco was the first to use capo in flamenco, he invented alzapua, he invented iia rasgeo (except Ruben), etc. etc.
??? Not sure what you're trying to do here Mike but Mark is correct.
I believe what Paco has done with each album to push composition, techniques and treatment of Compas to the next level is unprecedented and I would say most people (including Tomatito etc) would agree to that.
Whether you like it or not is another thing all together. But gees, I have to say he indeed is an incarnation of a Holy kind!!
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Mike_Kinny)
quote:
Juan Martin and Juan Serrano have created some very good teaching material. I don't like their solo playing but if they had a flamenco show with dancers, singers, etc. I would gladly attend.
btw, have you seen JM accompany dancers? anyone who saw the tour with Eva Yerbabuena back in the mid-nineties will know what i'm talking about.
the show i saw they had given up completely on JM even trying to accompany the dancers and so he came on and played a couple of polite solos and then went off and Paco Jarana (Eva's husband) came on and played for the dancers and singers. repeat after interval. at the end JM came back on to join the rest of the group, he looked like he was miming while grinning inanely. This was when i first started to think there was something not quite right about the JM thing, and before i had heard any of the "rumours".
I later heard from other people that earlier in the tour he had been on stage with the dancers and it had been a disaster.
i have seen him since then with dancers, and his accompaniment has been tentative, plodding and simplistic - you can't excuse him by saying it's "old school" or "traditional" because when you compare it to Manuel Morao or Melchor de Marchena, he looks like a student playing for a dance class.... in fact he looks and sounds a bit like he learnt some chord sequences from a book....
RE: What do you think of????? (in reply to Stoney)
quote:
I respect other's opinions but not erroneous info that some folk (here and anywhere) think they can get away with it cause their bulerias is better than person X's.
i wonder who you are talking about?
believe me, there are some very high level players here, and there are also some very knowledgeable aficionado's of flamenco.... and some of them (ie. players and knowledgeable people) are the same people!
just check out any of the threads about solea por bulerias, people like Ricardo and Norman really know what they are talking about, their level of knowledge is way beyond mine, and it has taken me years to get to the point where i know enough to even appreciate the level these guys are on.
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so they will all be a bit disappointed that neither of us has sunk that low and/or got ourselves banned 
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