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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES**
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
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Florian You´re such a bad looser. Dont you ever get sick of yourself? This challenge you start whining against the judges because they dont know or dont understand.... Thats really weak. Do you really think that someone wants to judge a competition where you are participating. If this was football, you would get 2 -5 games without being allowed to play. Last challenge, the Ardilla one, you were even worse. You had the guts to say that Todd, who won, had cheated. You really goofed it that day and showed how "nice" a person you are. You just dont enter a competition and start saying that the winner is a cheater. Its the lowest we´ve been on the foro That day I was embarrased of being a member of foroflamenco. And if you participate in a challenge I will not participate myself and I will not be judging. Ok. Enough is enough. I´m not saying you should go, I hope you stay, because besides being VERY tired of you right now, I actually like you and want you to stay. but I hope that you would learn to shut up sometimes and give some more space to others. Because you´ve just done again, turned a thread which should have been about EVERYONES playing in this challenge into a thread which is ONLY about you. Your ego is killing this foro. This thread was supposed to be about the entrys not about you. Now its to late. There´s no space for comments on Deteresas, Henrys, or anyone elses playing including myself. Now there´s just Florian whining and everyone commenting on that. What a waste of energy.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 17 2009 1:27:38
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edguerin
Posts: 1590
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania
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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to JasonMcGuire)
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quote:
Generally it is not a good policy to discuss grades with Students (I learned that at my own expense, stirring nervous grudges over claims of discrimination, negligence and incompetence by the lower graded). However, the educational opportunity such discussion will lend, should outweigh any concern that it may also stimulate a confrontation where a conversation should be in order. The thorough commentaries Jason, Norman and Ricardo offered are invaluable lessons for both the contestants and the audience. But each may indeed offend a sensitive musician, while the more articulated the “opinion” the Judge offers the more it also offers its flank to further challenge and appeal. While taste is an absolute subjective measure, technical critique is objective and as such, can be challenged on the (lack of) accurate application of the objective standards invoked by the Judge. We should not forget that each judge is devoting time to listen carefully (over and over) to each submission, and then time to draft his opinion and score. In doing so, as frank as Judges have been, they carefully crafted their comments to avoid insulting the participants. After all, one may shine in one challenge, a concert or CD while performing miserably in another contest. Comments are not defining the caliber of the musician, but simply the relative and specific performance submitted, we should not forget that. Ricardo, one of my favorite musicians on this Foro, submitted his rendition of Tomatitio’s “la Ardila” quite below his standards, as we have come to know them and admire them. The Judges’ comments whether from incompetent, such as I am, and more learned members, uniformly punished his (admittedly) hurried performance. That competition which saw our own “giants” at play, hurt the sensitive feelings of a few as well. I remember being myself quite disturbed, and even offered an apology, for offering a “blonde” judgment in a challenge which called for more prepared arbitrators than I am. I suggest we need to see this as in law we see the difference between a “Judge” and a “Jury”. That is what we have here, not professional judges but a jury, one constituted by our peers who are offering their judgment acting on a simple set of instructions. Can we challenge the “Jurors’ ” findings? No we cannot and should not… not unless they show egregious misconduct, corruption of opinion, bias or insanity. Within the limits of each Juror’s knowledge, and available time, it seems that all judges have acted in good faith, and have devoted their passionate time to offer as sound an evaluation as we could afford and ask of anyone. These protests, as cute as they are, will ultimately deter members from acting as judges. I –for instance- took it truly to heart when people wrote on the Forum that the Ardila’s challenge had been compromised by (basically) “ half witted and ignorant of Flamenco” judges. When we receive summons to serve on a Jury here in the US, most will excogitate formidably creative excuses to avoid serving. We don’t want that spirit on this Forum. To offensively impugn the Judges (or Jurors)’s verdicts is simply wrong and counterproductive, regardless of how sincerely we disagree with them. We can all harbor the self indulging relief to our disgruntled disappointment that, had it been a different jury so would the outcome…. But if we voice that too loudly, there ain’t gonna be no more Juries!!! I totally agree! It's why I only posted scores and no comments. I (still) am willing to act as judge/juror in future contests (where qualified).
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Ed El aficionado solitario Alemania
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Date Oct. 17 2009 9:50:34
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JasonMcGuire
Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007
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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ailsa)
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Yes ... a lot of palos have a "cambio"..... The singer changes the melody in the last line of the letra that hints to the guitarist to change the chord to the relative major. This is of course in relation to palos that are in a phrygian key. The cambio is often repeated a second time, but not always so listen carefully. We usually set that up by playing the dominant of that relative major key, in this case C7. The relative major is Fmajor, so that is the resolution chord of the cambio. To make it sound more flamenco we usually make it a 7th chord as well. So the "cambio" for A phrygian is C7 - F (or F7). Here is a quick list for commonly used keys..... A phrygian (bulerias,tangos,tientos, seguiriyas,solea por bulerias)... C7 - F E phrygian (solea).... G7 - C B phrygian... D7 - G F# phrygian.... A7 -D Ab (G#) phrygian..... B7 - E Db (C#) phrygian..... E7 - A Eb (D#) phrygian... F#7 - B here is a quick list of palos that have a cambio. (not in ALL cases, but its typical none the less) Listen to a few and see if you can find them. Its a great excericise for someone trying to learn more about cante.... bulerias, tangos, tientos, seguiriyas, solea por bulerias, solea Hope I didn't leave any out.....
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http://www.Flamenco-Lessons.com/ http://www.CaminosFlamencos.com/ http://www.youtube.com/user/Bikhiyal http://flamenco-lessons.blogspot.com
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Date Oct. 17 2009 10:29:12
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ailsa)
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Jason, you beat me to the punch again! I usually write my posts first in the Windows Notepad and log in to post them afterward. I've got a few comments to add, so here's what I've written: Strictly speaking, it's the "big chord change," typically the G7-C part of a soleá accompanied por arriba or C7-F por medio. It happens in the second line of three-line verse and the third line of four-line verse. Tientos, tangos and bulerías often have a cambio, too. I suppose the word could also be used for the F in alegrías and the E in caracoles, accompanying in C in both cases. Another way the term is used is "siguiriya de cambio," which refers to a style that isn't the typical siguiriya you hear at the beginning of a series, but isn't a siguiriya cabal, either. For example, the styles of Manuel Molina, Juan Junquera and María Borrico. The word doesn't really apply to any of the fandango-based cantes: malagueñas, tarantas, granaínas, etc.
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Date Oct. 17 2009 11:25:09
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Last challenge, the Ardilla one, you were even worse. You had the guts to say that Todd, who won, had cheated. You really goofed it that day and showed how "nice" a person you are. You just dont enter a competition and start saying that the winner is a cheater. Its the lowest we´ve been on the foro hey man i said i would stop posting now why dont you back off making personal caracter calls on me..i havent made any on you..that incident didnt just happen out of the blue it eventuated from something..i said something (wasent meant the way he took it) .. then he said something then i said something and it turned into an argument....i am by no means innocent and perhaps shouldnt have said what i said but i am also not the evil guy you dare to try to imply where do you get the nerve to discuss me when i am discussing/disagreeing flamenco subjects.. yes i argue...i didnt wanna argue i tried to discuss it but defencive people like you turned it into an argument..if you disagree with me by all means discuss the topic..but you are the one that keeps deviating from the subject and making it about me, i have not gotten angry, or gotten personal with anyone on this thread or staarted throwing personal insults to anyone.. you are the one that is making caracter calls on me you didnt get alot of chords and you placed 4th this is not even a question of opinion or taste its the wrong freaking chords all togheder..so yeah excuse me if that curled up my shorts a litlle and wanted to discuss it...its not a tantrum its the wrong freaking chords ..and this was beeing generous and not focusing too much on all the small details Piranha 00:39 wrong chord 00:49 wrong chord 00:12 wrong chord 00:32 wrong chord 01: 44 wrong chord 01:45 missed change 02:33 wrong chord i havent even gotten to the second letra, this was just the salida and 1st letra or am not even talking about phrasing or compas in a cante challenge where the right chords should be the first freaking thing judged and we are all acting like its a litlle thing..its a freaking huge thing...providing you not terribly out of compas is THE THING ...everything else is second....nothing else equals it, no rasqueado, no personal preference on sound, no personal style , no personal preference...the others are important too but none match it in importance my playing wasent all i wished it was either but dude if...at the most i got a couple of wrong chords.....this is why i wanted to discuss ...not cause its a tantrum cause you playd the wrong chords in a cante accomp challenge aand i didnt wanna make it about you specifically but like you say its been too much about me and you havent had a chance to discuss it...cause i have apparently been holding your hand and you couldnt discuss it.. this is not like any other challenge..its not a solo challenge or a question of taste or style or preference....the right chords is undeniably the most important aspect of this challenge so dont act like i did it for no reason and its always about me or i am just looking for arguments..its not an opinion its a fact ...you got just as many wrong chords as you got right.. the audio is there for anyone to hear.....now excuse me if that crawled up my shorts a litlle bit and wanted to discuss it further...and i even droped it 4 days ago, deleted my posts and bited my tongue on the topic... but then you had to get personal with me and assume to know my character when i was arguing the topic not the person... i dont care much weather you aprove of me or not i keped my personal feelings on you to myself...and dont throw my past in my face i have taken and given just as much... if hearing the wrong chords in a cante acompanyament competition and asking what i consider to be a prety unavoidable question...."how on f*king earth ?"..makes me childish well then i guess i have been
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Date Oct. 17 2009 19:00:16
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