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RE: What is Flamenco?
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duwen
Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009
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 RE: What is Flamenco? (in reply to at_leo_87)
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(when I asked the question why are 'we' bored, some here thought I was meaning me. But the reason I put commas round 'we' was to suggest i wasn't either speaking about me or the members here....Wrong!  I was referring to who I had mostly mentioned, youth and their video games....? Pay attention 
Personally I hardly ever get bored. There have of course been times in my life when I have been despairingly bored. And to 'fix' that have gotten attached to some pretty self-destructive habits. Bad in one way, and I wouldn't recommend it to any one, but the positive from it is it adds to depth of experience. IE., you've been to a hell, and returned kind of thing...?
Surely when you learn an art, an instrument then this resolves that sense of boredom.
But for me the essence of resolving it is beginning to be aware of the duende of life. Its deepness. Of nature, relationships, and so on
I completely get what you mean at_leo_87 Those kinds of shows mould the watchers. THEY become a means to inform gullible young how to act.
I feel that we have lost the joy of play. For example, as kids we knew how to play, it is natural. We can imagine scenarios even though we know they aren't 'real', and it was great fun.
But culture then imposes on us the idea that that was specifically for then, and now we must be 'sensible, normal, adults', though we ARE allowed to get as drunk as hell and act the fool--as many many of the youth are doing. Here in my country this is epidemic, and i know other countries have this problem.
So I wonder why this is?
And I think it is many things, and a big part of is we have been made to feel we cannot play and use our imagination, UNLESS we are routed into the usual acceptable rituals as said as going and getting drunk or drugged (and by 'drugged' I dont mean respectful partaking of sacred medicine. But many youth use psychedelics, disrespectfully, as a means of escape and this can be self-destructive, yes. But this is part of the overall suppression of our naturalness).
Let me give an example of play. Yesterday soon after talking here with you about 'Total Immersion', I soon had to go and cook a meal in the kitchen. I was playing guitar and at first felt it a drag I had to leave my guitar--you know how it is  --so I did this: I pretended I was going to experience an old fashioned kitchen (ours is anceint lol) from the 1930s-- total immersion , so as i entered the kitchen i was playing at looking at the experience like that, just for fun. And doing this has an effect on your senses. That is what i mean by play. A kid would know what i mean anyhow. But most adults might call it 'crazy'.
Being called crazy, or thinking yourself crazy, is a huge fear in our age. It implies 'mental illness'. And this brings us to the vast subject of the mental illness myth!
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Date Apr. 11 2009 0:37:31
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kozz
Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL
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RE: What is Flamenco? (in reply to andresito)
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ORIGNAL: Duwen
I can follow your argumentation to a certain point, but do not agree an all of it.
Perhaps 'agree' isn't a good word, but say, I experience it an a other level.
The experience of joy is ones innermost expression which can't be argued. You also state that, by being aware of the duende of life, it's deepness and so on. So experience of joy can be totally different for you than for some girls whatching tv shows. One of my best friends is hooked to television, but she has a very joyfull life, since she believes that the romance projected in those shows is true. And as a mather of fact, it is happening to her in that way.
I myself, am more looking into the deepness of it, but sometimes wished I had that vision of her.
Actually she is saying the same thing about me, being ADHD-ed to music, or call it a passion....."You are living in a strange world" "I can't understand what you saying about the emotion in music"....
The key thing to experience joy is to be open-minded, and one might be surprised.
Another thing to me which is very important, in order to be joyfull, I need to feel bored, I need to be sad and so on, but always stay with MY innerfeelings and not what "is-supposed-to-be". The latter got me into drugs a long time ago, and it was a great escape, but at a certain point it gets right back to you and you have to deal with the issue anyway.
I think flamenco/duende is such an expression of innerfeeling which can't be copied, but only experienced by one. And if correct, you yourselves won't even experience it that way, because that's who-you-are, but other people will notice it for you. (Ones self-vision does not always match how others look at you)
Anyway, I am gonna do some flamenco exercises, but than again others might see it as "crap"...
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Date Apr. 11 2009 2:04:31
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duwen
Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009
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RE: What is Flamenco? (in reply to kozz)
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I feel you
Just found this interesting article: http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info14.shtml
"In spanish the translation of mushroom from the mazatec is "little child" (pequeño niño). I think the little child means something like prank (?) or lively fancy like the little elfs or goblins, duendes in spanish; little inhabitant who lives in the forest (pequeño habitante que vive en el bosque).
"Aluxes" (pronounced 'alushes') in the Mayan language is sometimes used for psilocybin mushrooms. JH writes: "I was born in Mexico and lived in the state of Yucatan through my youth, a state heavily populated by people of Mayan descent who still speak Maya as their first language, spanish as their second. It is usually spelled 'aluxes' (in Maya, 'x' makes a 'sh' sound). Aluxes are mythical elf-like creatures that play pranks and steal from people at nighttime. In spanish, these are called 'duendes'."
So again we can see this connection. It is very common for indigenous people to be open to the reality of nature spirits, or whatever you want to call 'them'.
Just looked up about term 'flameco' and find: http://www.flamenco-and-fingerstyle-guitar-lessons.com/word-flamenco.html
"The word flamenco
The word flamenco - Arabic roots (1)
From the Arabic 'felag mengu', meaning 'fugitive peasant', or 'peasant in flight'. This term applied to all persecuted people (including Muslims and Jews) who fled to the mountains to escape the Inquisition. This has also been interpreted as 'migrant farmer'. Another variation is "Fellahmengu" which is supposed to mean "Peasant without Land".
Not sure I am happy with this definition. 'in flight' and 'without land'--though I can understand that the Gypsies were persecuted. But to say 'without land'...? WHO says that? Land OWNERS.
Our hunter gatherer history had peoples moving about. And they had land because land is for everyone. Not just for those who stay in one place
It makes no sense to say a being has no land. Do migrating birds, or any animals have no land? Earth is home. Though some tyrants and their lackies and brainwashed believe otherwise, hence the ongoing troubles in the world over 'land' and 'resources' etc etc etc.
But remember, this is just an interpretation--doesn't mean it is 'true' meaning...? I have just found it.
For example, here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco says origin of the term is "unclear"
But this is why term 'duende' is very interesting to me, because it shows a deep connection between people who you wouldn't expext. Like the Mazatecs and Andalucian gypsies.
'Also African and New World influences': " Recent research[citation needed] has revealed that there might have been an influence of Sub-Saharan African music on flamenco's prehistory. This developed from the music and dance of African slaves held by the Spanish in the New World. There are 16th and 17th century manuscripts of classical compositions that are possibly based on African folk forms, such as negrillas, zarambeques, and chaconas. We[clarification needed] also find mention of the fandango indiano (Indiano meaning from the Americas, but not necessarily Native American). Some critics support the view that the names of flamenco palos, like the tangos or even the fandango, are derived from Bantoid languages[4], and most theories state that the rhythm of the tangos was imported from Cuba."
I also find this inspiring:
"Traditionally, flamenco guitarists did not receive any formal training, so they just relied on their ear to find the chords on the guitar, disregarding the rules of Western classical music. This led them to interesting harmonic findings, with unusual unresolved dissonances (Rossy 1998:88). Examples of this are the use of minor 9th chords for the tonic, the tonic chord of tarantas, or the use of the 1st unpressed string as a kind of pedal tone."
This playing by ear is of course shared by original Blues players.
I feel that a lot os us 'moderns' can find ourselves in a conflict of sorts between, eg, should we learn theory or play by ear
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Date Apr. 12 2009 4:31:15
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: What is Flamenco? (in reply to andresito)
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OK man, I have been where you are (in ****ing high school)..when you rely heavily on psychoactive substances (don't do it kids), you begin to convince yourself that the world somehow revolves around magic mushrooms. It doesn't.
Personally I'm pissed off that you continue to reduce Flamenco - this beautifully deep and rich art form - to some pseudo-religious new age crystal ****. I'm glad that you are doing research and trying to understand the origins of Flamenco, but you need to keep an open mind, not just google "flamenco animism" and automatically believe whatever you find. Also remember a lot of stuff you are reading about was written literally almost 100 years ago. Yes, read Lorca (I love his stuff), but take him as what he is, one very romantically inclined poet that lived 100 years ago.
As far as gypsies, some people may find the things that you have said to be extremely racist. The word "gypsy" hasn't meant "nomad" in a very long time...it's an ethnic group that has nomadic origins. You have essentially reduced their culture to exactly what has been the stereotype of gypsies in the western world for centuries, and then added ****ing peyote. And I'm not saying Lorca, Hemingway, and Donn Pohren didn't have stereotypes either.
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date May 6 2009 6:39:32
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duwen
Posts: 68
Joined: Mar. 25 2009
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RE: What is Flamenco? (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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quote:
OK man, I have been where you are (in ****ing high school)..when you rely heavily on psychoactive substances (don't do it kids), you begin to convince yourself that the world somehow revolves around magic mushrooms. It doesn't.
Why are you hostile?
Have you read any word I have said
Your manner is offensive.
quote:
Personally I'm ****ed off that you continue to reduce Flamenco - this beautifully deep and rich art form - to some pseudo-religious new age crystal ****. I'm glad that you are doing research and trying to understand the origins of Flamenco, but you need to keep an open mind, not just google "flamenco animism" and automatically believe whatever you find. Also remember a lot of stuff you are reading about was written literally almost 100 years ago. Yes, read Lorca (I love his stuff), but take him as what he is, one very romantically inclined poet that lived 100 years ago.
I am reducing Flamenco now.....lol, OMG this is comedy.
Look, I am saying that the attitude against me mentioning this, and your attitude particularly is not flamenco at all, but plastic flamenco. Its you who trash the real meaning of Gypsy Flamenco with this ignore-ant attitude. Especially by imagining I am New Age. I am far from New Age, and so is authentic flamenco!
You are also very patronising. And I will never listen to your play as it would hurt my ears in a way i dont want! 
quote:
As far as gypsies, some people may find the things that you have said to be extremely racist. The word "gypsy" hasn't meant "nomad" in a very long time...it's an ethnic group that has nomadic origins. You have essentially reduced their culture to exactly what has been the stereotype of gypsies in the western world for centuries, and then added ****ing peyote. And I'm not saying Lorca, Hemingway, and Donn Pohren didn't have stereotypes either.
So now you call me racist?................................!
You will always be a dull player without soul/duende till you wake up!
You spit on the sacred. I wonder why you even read what I say? Are you missing something?
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Date May 6 2009 10:11:52
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