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DaveyS

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to el carbonero

What about this one?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t5c8yryjho8clns/AABkgoQmcz-8y3GwOyshv9SIa?dl=0
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2016 9:57:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveyS

What about this one?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t5c8yryjho8clns/AABkgoQmcz-8y3GwOyshv9SIa?dl=0


That one is legit conde as per it's lable. THe "Faustino made it" thing is impossible to know, but for sure he (his wife) SOLD this to someone in 1986 before he died. The signature is the same as others coming out of that shop long after Faustino was gone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2016 19:19:15
 
DaveyS

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Oct. 6 2015
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Yep! To be honest, the whole Faustino thing is definitely overrated. I have 2 conde Blancas that are both great but very different.
Different bracing, different neck shape and geometry.
The '98 Felipe V is technically the 'better' guitar. Its loud & lean and beautifully built but the '86 is very comfy and has something else.
Neither of them can really compete with the work of this guy though...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wvj90nosnfgju81/GF.jpeg?dl=0
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2016 0:42:11
 
orsonw

Posts: 1461
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Any more information about the head stock design that Nino Ricardo's 1955 Conde had? Does it signify anything or is it simply a design experimentation?

Introduced in 1949 according to this thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=112520&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=nino%2Cricardo%2Cconde&tmode=&smode=&s=#112552

Here it is on a 1969 Sobrinos
https://www.lasonanta.com/flamenco-guitars/cypress-blanca/sobrinos-de-domingo-esteso-flamenco-guitar-1969




(1.33 for headstock view)




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 11:21:08
 
orsonw

Posts: 1461
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to orsonw

Here's another unusual headstock, is it genuine?

The guitar has a signed Viuda y Sobrinos label but simple purfling, two bar tieblock, 647mm scale and Torres style headstock.


http://m.ebay.com/itm/272356272817?_mwBanner=1








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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 13:50:38
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

I think the guitar is a Conde but my idea is that both the headstock and the label are not original.
The label seems to me too white and fresh to have 54 years, while the headstock looks made of mahogany instead of cedrela: possibly it was re- made at some stage.
Many details told me the guitar is a Conde form the sixties though (maybe a Pozuelo-Conde, who knows) but cannot say it for sure without having it in my hands.
I think the seller is with good faith: if someone wanted to make a proper fake it would have been easier than to make a "strange" Conde and try to sell it on EBay.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 14:27:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Echi

I think guitar and label are legit. Head cut is from the 30's...there is a Ramon Montoya video and his guitar has the same head style.
At 0:15

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 16:31:50
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

The head style of the guitar used by Montoya seems to me more like that of the guitar used by Nino Ricardo IMHO.
Maybe Nino Ricardo wanted the same headstock of the Esteso guitar used by Montoya. I don't know.
The 3 arches headstock is a very common and anonymous design since the times of Torres and Arias but I never saw it used by the Condes in the '60. Maybe I'm wrong but all the 2nd class guitars coming from the 2 shops (Pozuelo and Gravina) I saw, either had the typical Manuel Ramirez/Esteso headstock shape or a more rounded one (for the models of tercera).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 17:34:24
 
orsonw

Posts: 1461
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

I am always impressed by Montoya's right hand, it seems he was way ahead of his time.

So that is a 1930's Esteso in the Montoya video (still below). What year is the Montoya Esteso that you played at R. Brune's?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 17:47:56
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Here they sell a '69 Conde with the headstock seen on the guitar of Nino Ricardo.
https://www.lasonanta.com/flamenco-guitars/cypress-blanca/sobrinos-de-domingo-esteso-flamenco-guitar-1969
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 30 2016 21:43:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

I am always impressed by Montoya's right hand, it seems he was way ahead of his time.

So that is a 1930's Esteso in the Montoya video (still below). What year is the Montoya Esteso that you played at R. Brune's?




I played a 1923. The head was different, simpler style. I don't know if the guitar Montoya has in the movie is Esteso or not, but it's the same style headstock as the guitar that was in question. A similar design is in the old Felipe V Conde catelogue for the model AC 22 classical. Both are different than the N. Ricardo guitar which is a variant but I think called "cathedral" or something by T. Blackshear who copied that design. I believe that was a very limited style, only seen a couple that used it in the 50's.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2016 11:05:54
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 711
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I believe that was a very limited style, only seen a couple that used it in the 50's.


I have seen examples from 49 to 55. Of course in those days stuff was carved by hand by the old boys or their helpers and it is not surprising to see some variations. These examples are 50, 51 and 55.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2016 14:20:22
 
orsonw

Posts: 1461
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for the replies.

quote:

I believe that was a very limited style, only seen a couple that used it in the 50's.


Here on a 1969, as I posted above.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 31 2016 14:53:22
 
beltri

 

Posts: 74
Joined: Sep. 28 2006
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

La foto de la última cabeza se denomina cabeza "de catedral", según la información que dispongo fueron realizadas por Faustino en un número en torno a 10/15 unidades, las cuales fueron todas entregadas a guitarristas de primera línea de la época como Niño Ricardo, Manolo de Huelva....
Ni que decir tiene que son una edición muy especial y que tienen un valor más alto que las cabeza "de media Luna" debido a lo escaso de producción, calidad de materiales y fabricación.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2016 10:48:44
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

I am sorry to revive an old Conde thread, but are AF25 models listed as AF25 on the label? I see so many Conde guitars listed as AF25 with a huge price tag to match but the label does not specify AF25 whereas I could swear this used to be the case back in the 90s to mid 2000s.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2018 16:50:51
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 711
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Harry

Handwritten model numbers of the guitars made at the Felipe V workshop started to appear consistently in the middle of 2003, Before this it was hardly ever done. After Mariano Senior died the labels were signed by either Felipe or Mariano Junior.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 10:03:08
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Hi,
It’s just something of the era of Felipe and Mariano Conde to define the 1st class models (half moon shaped -media luna - headstock) with box made of cypress.
A 26 was used just in the shop in Calle Felipe V from 2000..I think this has something to do with the collaboration with Guitar Salon.
The shop of Calle Gravina didn’t mention any model (with the exception of the model Paco de Lucia, which was a negra).
Previously you would identify the first class models by the half moon shaped headstock and the signature on the label. No mention of model.
A guitar with Half moon headstock and not signed label is eventually the same guitar, built in the same venues, but sold at less money for some reasons.
Studio guitars have different label (green) different rosette and different headstock.

Ps. I wrote in the meantime of Robje and didn’t see his message.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 10:13:11
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 711
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Harry

Just to confirm what Echi says - the model numbers existed for a few years before they started writing them on the labels.

The Gravina shop had model numbers in their publicity 1, 2, 3, 4 etc but people didn't seem to refer to them much.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 16:42:12
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3013
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Echi

Then there were the "tourist" model media lunas. When I first went to the Gravina 7 shop Faustino was there, though not behind the counter. He lounged near the three disused workbenches at one side, which commemorated the day when the Sobrinos actually made guitars on a regular basis.

I asked the young man behind the counter for one of their best instruments. He went into the back room, returned and handed me an object shaped more or less like a guitar, with the media luna headstock. He quoted a price twice as high as their best guitars were going for. The neck was not only bowed, but also twisted. The frets were rough, and only in approximately the right places. Though the trend varied, it went very sharp as you went up the fretboard. Chords were out of tune. It had the sonority and tone of a freshly cut yellow pine two-by-four inch board. I had met more than one gringo who bought one of those disasters.

I played a couple of solea falsetas and handed the object back to the young man without comment. He glanced at Faustino, who nodded almost imperceptibly. The young man went to the back room again, and returned with a quite decent guitar, though not outstanding. I sat on a stool and played for ten or fifteen minutes. Not virtuosically, but competently. In those days it was rare to hear a gringo play in compas.

Faustino and the rest listened attentively. A boy was dispatched. He returned with the Professor from down the street, whom I had visited earlier. He muttered to Faustino, presumably identifying what I was playing mainly as stuff copped from Mario Escudero.

I handed the guitar back to the young man, commenting that it was pretty good, but expensive. No discount was offered. I bought some strings and departed, without indicating that I knew who Faustino was.

Whenever I went back I was treated honestly and politely, but I never bought a guitar from them.

One of my friends had a '73 media luna which he bought new. His daughter was studying in Madrid. She went with a pro classical player to pick out a guitar. It was well made, but at first it was dead as a doornail. I felt sorry for my friend, but said nothing. However over a year or two it developed into a great guitar. Then I tried to buy it from him--more than once--but he wouldn't sell.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2018 17:18:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Harry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

I am sorry to revive an old Conde thread, but are AF25 models listed as AF25 on the label? I see so many Conde guitars listed as AF25 with a huge price tag to match but the label does not specify AF25 whereas I could swear this used to be the case back in the 90s to mid 2000s.


I have the catalogue with a photo of a guitar signed by Mariano Jr (their distinct signatures revealed after their split 2011), Felipe V no.2 address, 1989 on front cover. THe photo on the back is a very old Mariano Sr. Working on an Indian rosewood backed guitar. The top negras are first shown in the second section as AF25/R (Brazilian rosewood), AF25 (Indian Rosewood media luna), AF24 (old M. Ramirez style headstock), the blancas were called A26 and A27 with same idea with the headstock. STudent guitars called EF 4 and EF 5 models, and the classicals are shown in first section called AC 23/R, AC 23 AC23/R.8 (8 string), AC 22....and the studio classicals called EC 3, EC2 and EC1. So it seems with the establishment of the shop in (earliest) 1989 or so, they had been using this catalogue to distinguish the models, up until as mentioned 2003 or so when the wood issue came along and they started writing the models numbers in pen, and also saying the Brazilian looking guitars were “caviuna” and such...THAT practice could have been Guitar Salon influence.

This catalogue use was before Guitar Salon, back when Luthier music in NYC USA (the string maker) were the main distributor for these guys...and their online info, or if you called them, also used these designations to distinguish the models. When I purchesed my guitar from them (Luthier) in 1997 (A 26) I asked about the rumor of R.Sanchis constructing their guitars (as was rumored at the time) and he got super angry about it and assured me that was BS. Not long after I discovered the Atocha instruments at comparable price to Sanchis that had Sanchis stamps, hence the rumors....but the rumors persist to the present that the Felipe V are also guilty of this practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 15:19:31
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Thanks very much for all of the info Ricardo, and thanks to Richard for that anecdote!

I guess it is safe to say any media luna Felipe V signed label Conde with Indian Rosewood back and sides from the 90s to early 2000s would be an AF25 even without this designation on the label.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 16:58:58
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 17 2018 17:03:06
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Few people like to discuss this topic, I see.
Many pages have been already written years ago.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2018 11:21:28
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Nowadays you're better off buying a true one man made guitar from a renowned and trusted builder with a pedigree such as José Romero. He's one of the last survivors of that great era when everything was done manually and the woods carefully chosen and dried cured for decades.

BTW he has no son or daughter (Mariano or Amalia) or apprentices (Felipe) or anything like that so as long as he lives, he's one of the surest bet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2018 12:00:55
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:


BTW he has no son or daughter (Mariano or Amalia) or apprentices (Felipe) or anything like that so as long as he lives, he's one of the sure


This is true. I have sat and watched him sanding a heel for an hour with various grades of sandpaper, before going out for lunch; he knows all the best places in Espoz y Mina We had a great time when he came to visit me in Cádiz with his friend Ulpiano.

If I ever had to buy another guitar, it would be a Romero.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2018 17:19:25
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Romero told me a year ago about a Chinese (or was he Japanese?) who came into his shop asking a lot of questions about flamenco guitars as he would not depart from Spain without a high-end guitar.

As a true gentleman and master of guitar building he patiently answered all his questions only to see him enter the shop the day after with a freshly bought Conde guitar. Romero examined the guitar and found several faults to it some of which were a real shame on a guitar with such a price tag (€9000 or so). The guy asked him to fix it but this time Romero not so politely told him to go screw himself.

When you enter FC's shop he looks at you with much disrespect. MC is a lot friendlier and a great guy to talk to (I now understand why they split up). When you enter the Atocha shop Carmen doesn't even bother to show up. When you start playing one of their tourists guitars and if you play decently she might come with something from the back of the shop at a price which depends on many variables such as your nationality and if you speak Spanish. I wasn't impressed by ANY of her instruments.

José Romero treats everybody in the same way because he's only interested in the afición that people have for flamenco and guitars in general.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2018 13:06:20
 
edguerin

Posts: 1545
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

quote:

When you enter FC's shop he looks at you with much disrespect.


Back in 2008 I shared my visit to the Frankfurt Music Fare, where I tried out some Condés.

At the time, I didn't realise it was FC who attended to me, and found him surly, and almost rude.
They had a North African student to translate from Spanish to German, and since my Spanish was less fluent back then, I accepted this "intermediary" at first, but found his translations to be absolutely xl#*@@. Very imaginative to say the least. At some point I stopped and corrected him.
Although he was obviously annoyed at having been assigned a hoodwinker, LC warmed to me and almost became courteous


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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2018 9:38:14
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Jose Romero, Pedro de Miguel and Ivan Manzanero are very good options in Madrid.
You may consider also Jose Antonio Lagunar. They all build their guitars.
I was about to buy a guitar made by Romero once: I spoke with the man, I saw him working etc. At the end I wasn’t convinced though as the guitar, while very good, didn’t have that punch in the mid range or the clear loudness of a good Conde. It was more balanced.
At the time I bought a guitar from Manzanero (he has a stock of wood of impressive quality). In the meantime I had also a Manuel Caceres that was in everything equal to Arcangel. (Manuel use to make guitars for Arcangel - aka guitars sold as authentic Arcangels - for the last 11 years of his career).
Eventually both those guitars have been sold (I think the Manzanero was better) and now I have a Conde made by an unknown maker which I find even better. Mysteries of life...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2018 11:18:23
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Here's how a modern Romero sounds. Makes a tremendous competitor to any Conde IMO.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2018 15:14:54
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

Beautiful guitar indeed. However, I would love to hear the guitar in a dry setting. That room seems to have awesome acoustics that definitely help. Reminds me of when I had my first factory guitar. It sounded awful so I would just play in a small room with the door closed. It still sounded kind of bad, but at least it was louder! Thanks for sharing this. If I had the money I would strongly consider that Romero, but I have a feeling it will sell fast.

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2018 14:35:47
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