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Interesting conversation about Tendovaginitis and EL Viejin today   You are logged in as Guest
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Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

Interesting conversation about Tendo... 

Most of you i guess know that hes had problems with his hands and dosent play anymore..

Well the Cajon player (he plays with a few big names so he would be pretty credible) i was talking to today told me that EL Viejin was so into developing good picado...he had developed this litlle weights for his I and M..and used to practice with it all the time....

thats what gave him really bad Tendovaginitis..the doctor told him he wont be able to play at all for a couple of years and even when he does in 2 years might not be the same..

so he may or may not make a comeback..

hope he does...but i thought this was an interesting conversation ....a few years back for a while there i had a pretty experimental and crazy theory of practicing picado with elastics around my I M fingers forcing it to work harder for more strength and speed, i hadent considered things like Tendovaginitis cause it dosent seem that hard to do it but after alot of repetition i guess, the elastics made sense to me at that time since u do the same motion as normal picado but theres more resistance....i am glad i never ever went through with it tho....

i am sure theres a million theories like this out there...anyone ever heard of anymore ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 5:32:51
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Interesting conversation i had a... (in reply to Florian

Robert Schumann (1810-1856), the composer was annoyed by the interdependency of the fingers (especially q) so he devised a mechanical apparatus that was supposed to strengthen the individual fingers. He tried it obsessively, developed tendovaginitis and was left with an immobile right hand. He had to give up his promising career as a pianist.

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 8:15:50
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation i had a... (in reply to edguerin

Wow thanks for that...a very interesting story

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 8:23:00
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation i had a... (in reply to Florian

btw..i just did some searching on the web to try and become a litlle more familliar with tendovaginitis...that was probably a mistake cause now i am worried

It seems like a very common thing for guitarists (the more i look in google the more i learn that many many guitarsits have it) and we are at a pretty high risk since the practice is so demanding..if anyone has anymore info, advice etc...please share..i dont know how i would handle it if i couldnt play guitar....and u always adapt this...."it wont happen to me" mentality

I never took it seriously before but as this guy says...by the time you do its far advanced...so now i would like to be atleast a litlle more educated..

is there things one can do...exercises to assure that they dont get this ?...i dont really like the idea of practicing less...i like the option of practicing as much as i like if possible.
Ron you have been playing for a long time...feel any discomfort ? how much do you practice on the average ? do u do special exercises ? anyone else ?

Since classical guitar is more covered from all aspects, organised and studied in colleges is there theories they teach about this kind of stuff ?

quote:

What Happens, When People Have Tendovaginitis or Other Finger Disorders?
Tendons are located at the ends of muscles, where they are bunched together for strength and hardness. When the sheaths that enclose the tendons are swollen with extreme friction, they become inflamed and the end result is "tendovaginitis".
Inflamation will cause pain and eventually the affected area will grow thick by swelling. Movements will become difficult, sometimes a sudden strech of the affected area could result in a particular popping sound made by the affected tendons.
Overuse of the muscles over a long period could also result in similar afflictions .
There are various conditions in "tendovaginitis". The finger motor problems among string-instument players can therefore be categorized under the term of "Overuse syndrom".


The Easy Cases
Finger problems associated with pain are generally caused by sudden overuse. Such cases are relatively easy to be cured by resting properly and by an appropriate therapy.


The Aggravated Cases
If a player puts the strain on their fingers by practicing just short of causing an acute inflammation, the muscle used by those movements tires and stiffens(from too much using the lactic acid accumulating inside) much like in some occupational disorders. The muscle loses suppleness and shrinks(atropmies) -----this stage is generally called"stiffening tendon".
This first single stiffness will most likely cause another one and tend to develop into the aggravated case, where the blood circulation is disturbed and the patient feels the languidness in the arm. In the prolonged cases, the stiffness could be also seen and felt in the neck and the shoulders .
This could eventually cause a motor disturbance. A player himself quite often does not realize what is going on. He can not even understand why he is unable to play properly. He just wonders if it is because of lack of practice or he is suffering a finger disorder caused by too much practicing. So he goes on until the problem becomes really serious.
For example, a finger curling in or springing out without pain should be considered quite serious. Those cases should be taken care of properly, thoroughly and most of all patiently.



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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 8:52:17
 
Taranto

 

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RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

Musicians are already at the risk of injury and they develop Tendovaginitis at one or another time almost without exception. Elastic, weight and other similar devices just cause Tendovaginitis to appear earlier and severer.

I bet at least half of you guys have Tendovaginitis in your left hand wrist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 9:30:19
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Taranto

Is there anything one can do to slow it way way down ? besides playing less ? i hate that option...if thats my only option might as well quit cause it would be very very fustrating

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 9:32:13
 
val

 

Posts: 800
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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:46:21
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 9:38:40
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to val



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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 9:40:50
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to val

quote:

can therefore be categorized under the term of "Overuse syndrome".



Well...there ya go!


cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 10:33:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13243
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

I heard that story was an excuse, and the real reason he has given up flamenco was because of the culto. Either way, it is a shame...

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 14:00:44
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

Is there anything one can do to slow it way way down ? besides playing less ? i hate that option...if thats my only option might as well quit cause it would be very very fustrating


Yeah, if you're a professional musician, why not treat your wrists and fingers the way professional atheletes would treat the body parts that receive the most abuse?

After intense practice or sessions, ice them.
Massage and stretch your fingers and wrists.
Warm up, warm down.

Make sure that you work out the rest of your arms too... helps blood flow, prevents over develpment in one area from causing complications...


Do general light exercises with your hands to work out that lactic acid, or prevent build up, if they feel achy or stiff. Don't practice or play hard if you can aovid it when they feel this way. (Sometimes light exercise is the best way to relieve stiffness.)

Exercising to the point of discomfort can build strength, but continuing past that point causes injury. If it hurts even a little, you've done too much.
Your hands only have two muscles, niether of which have much to do with guitar technique, your fingers are controlled by tendons and ligaments, which are controlled by muscles in your wrists/forearms. Tendons and ligaments don't devolop as quickly as muscles do, so what feels like a "good burn" in your muscles when you're weight lifting is a bad burn when it's your tendons.


I'm not a doctor or a trainer, but prevention, recognition and treatment of (repetitive) stress injuries is a part of my usual job.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 14:25:29
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

Is there anything one can do to slow it way way down ? besides playing less ? i hate that option...if thats my only option might as well quit cause it would be very very fustrating

Cutting down on playing time could definitely be frustrating, but if it could possibly extend your ability to play well over the long term then it could be a good thing and ultimately even a necessary one. If you had to choose between playing eight hours a day for he next ten years before your hands give out, or four hours a day for the next twenty years, which would you pick? That’s a very inexact and totally hypothetical example, but I think the point is the same. I think as all of us get older we’re gonna have to spend more and more time working out the balance what we do to achieve out short-term goals with what we need to do to preserve our abilities to keep playing long-term, and that’ll undoubtedly mean making some choices we don’t like. And if you play professionally and don’t really have the luxury of choosing your own playing schedule, then that makes it even harder. I’d be curious to hear what some of the more seasoned players around here have to say about all this.

I’ve got an old preexisting, non-guitar, thumb injury that cuts into my playing time. I rarely get more than ninety minutes to two hours before I reach a point where my left hand basically calls it quits, and where trying to push past that point would only make things worse. What’s particularly frustrating is that the left hand typically gives out just as the right hand has gotten fully warmed up and ready to go.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 15:22:07
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I heard that story was an excuse, and the real reason he has given up flamenco was because of the culto. Either way, it is a shame...



I heard he joined the culto after as he was heart broken and had a difficult time after this thing happened..who knows


Thank you Exitao and srshea very good and interesting posts..

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 17:38:39
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

florian the best way to prevent it is to warm up slowly, and do daily stretching of your arms chest and back

it helps to lift light weights as a work out to strengthen the large muscles.

you should play using large muscle groups etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 18:05:43
 
pacowannab

 

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar. 3 2008
 

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

quote:

the best way to prevent it is to warm up slowly, and do daily stretching of your arms chest and back

it helps to lift light weights as a work out to strengthen the large muscles.

you should play using large muscle groups etc.


Cool. The flamenco players of the future are going to be as buffed as Aaaarnold! Flamenco is expensive enough already - now I've got to save up for 'roids!
Personally, I wasted a lot of time and effort on a penis strengthener - but that's for another thread (possibly on another website) and is an entirely different kind of workout. Not sure if it helped my guitar playing much... Sure ELEVATED my mood though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2009 18:26:34
 
val

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:45:59
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 4:04:49
 
MarcChrys

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Jan. 11 2009
From: England (West Yorkshire/Lancashire)

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to val

Ha ha. The possibilities of a trained 'lower limb' are intriguing - a no hands golpe? ;-) Maybe I need to get working on it and re-christen myself Paco Pene :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 4:17:56
 
edguerin

Posts: 1558
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

florian
keep warm, warm up slowly, change posture and hand position as often as possible.
Don't over-exert yourself. It's repeated, monotonous strain that causes tendovaginitis.

If you've overdone it and feel sore, then don't continue; take a break (like days, not hours )

As with all things, if you don't overdo it, it'll probably be o.k.

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 7:29:06
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to edguerin

It's interesting to think that the hands and fingers were not originally "designed" for what a lot of musicians demand of them, so no wonder there are casualties!

Also any stories I've heard about folk using ingenious gizmos and devices to "train" their fingers have usually ended up in a tale of disaster and tears!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 8:44:56
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 9:51:22
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Guest

I'm not sure nealf,
But from what some folk have being saying here it's sorta like the "Children of God"..."Hare Krishna Movement"...Mormons etc...

The Spanish residents will be able to tell you better.....


Peace (ting ting)


Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 10:40:19
 
mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

A lot of guitarists can bend the top joint of the left hand fingers in the wrong direction (hyper extension?). When I get sore, it is usually from doing half-barres where the top joint is pressed backwards. Does that also constitute a risk for tendovaginitis?

You guys with backward flexing half-barre joints, to which extent have you developed this from taking all those half-barres? A lot of jazzy chords rely on some flexing.. for instance a D9 x54555.. where it is the ring finger doing the half barre on the treble strings. Is it worth developing the backward flexing or is it unsound?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 11:15:22
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Guest

El Culto is also known as the Church of Filadelfia.

"Since 1952, unprecedented religious enthusiasm has swept through Rom communities. The Light and Life evangelical Gypsy pentecostal movement claims 8,000 members in Britain and 150,000 in France, where there are 500 Rom preachers, 60 places of worship and a Rom Bible school. Thirty per cent of all Spanish Gypsies have become 'alleluyas', members of a similarly charismatic pentecostal form of Christianity, dubbed by Spanish Romanies the Church of Philadelphia."

Its an evangelical church which as you can see from the quote above has become increasingly popular among the Gypsies of Spain. There are more than one thousand of these churches in Spain, with almost one hundred in Madrid alone.

Some forbid their followers to play flamenco, but not all. It may even be a an individual choice to dedicate themselves to God instead of flamenco. I actually went to the Culto last week in Santa Fé with a friend who is a professional flamenco singer who would never give up flamenco. I thought I would hate it, not being very keen on church in general, but it was fascinating. We were invited to hear the band as we are going to record them next week.

I have never been in such a noisy church, the music was super loud and went on throughout the whole service. Everyone spoke at once, children ran in and out playing. People came and left at will. It was so Gitano, and so happy compared to the Catholic Church. The pastor spoke in the style of an American preacher, testifying and praising. The hall was packed and had no icons just a simple protestant cross. The preaching focussed on freedom of spirit and breaking chains and not being imprisoned. It is very popular amongst former prisoners and addicts for the help and support that is offered.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 12:44:39
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to val

Val,
I was just thinking the same thing... :)
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 12:58:22
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to sig

quote:

I have never been in such a noisy church, the music was super loud and went on throughout the whole service. Everyone spoke at once, children ran in and out playing. People came and left at will. It was so Gitano, and so happy compared to the Catholic Church. The pastor spoke in the style of an American preacher, testifying and praising. The hall was packed and had no icons just a simple protestant cross. The preaching focussed on freedom of spirit and breaking chains and not being imprisoned. It is very popular amongst former prisoners and addicts for the help and support that is offered.


there are many paths to god, its good people getting involved with this but i doubt god would want people to give up their crafts whether music or with their hands.

i think many people reject the flamenco lifestyle, ie the cocaine drinking etc moreso than the music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 14:57:28
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to henrym3483

Kate you sound a litlle too enchanted with it ...do we need to organise an " Intervention" after the group challenge ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2009 17:56:28
 
Jan Willem

 

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Florian

quote:

but i doubt god would want people to give up their crafts whether music or with their hands.


off course not, but institutions that speak in his name whoever.... .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2009 0:52:54
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to henrym3483

quote:

ORIGINAL: henrym3483
i think many people reject the flamenco lifestyle, ie the cocaine drinking etc moreso than the music.


I think this is spot on. Almost all the people I know who have turned to the Culto had addiction problems and one of the first rules of dealing with an addiciton is to get away from the lifestyle that led you there.

Also when we read the word Culto, we think of a Cult whereas it actually means worship. And yes Florian I was a bit enchanted, as a church goes it was informal, more like a celebration and it felt genuine. I know if given a choice between the Catholic Church, Scientology or Opus Dei, where I would rather go ! But I had to laugh that you said you would only rescue me after the group challenge !! Got your priorities straight there LOL

After the service everyone came up and greeted us, which is most unusual in a Gypsy community, such as the one in Santa Fé. One of the elder Gitanas took my hand and said if I ever needed anything that she was there every day and I could come to her. That has never happened to me in any other Church, and I have been dragged to quite a few. I was really moved.

Anyway as they say " Allaluyah allaluyah cada una a lo suya "

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2009 1:53:03
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Kate

Kate,
I'm always a bit "suspicious" of churches that make you feel happy..
It's a bit like medicine that tastes good..

True religion should be about hard work, duty to God, denial of any pleasure whatsoever and hell fire and damnation like the good Calvanist teaching that was prevalent in my time as a kid in bonny Scotland.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2009 2:29:44
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Interesting conversation about T... (in reply to Kate

quote:

The preaching focussed on freedom of spirit and breaking chains and not being imprisoned. It is very popular amongst former prisoners and addicts for the help and support that is offered.


This puts it in perspective doesn't it? Like you Kate I'm not keen on church in general. Dave and I had a humanist wedding. But I can really relate to that emphasis.

And that Gitana who said you could come to her if you needed, isn't that just the sort of community help that many western societies have lost? For the worse I would say.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2009 2:33:12
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