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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2011 21:44:16
 
rombsix

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

and the weirdest (but coolest) 12-+-3-+-6-+-9-+- 4against3).


You mean like this?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2011 22:09:08
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2011 23:45:26
 
zata

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

(Me): Generally speaking, the issue you're all trying to sort out is not musical, but geographical and generational.

Music is made by people in time and space. Therefore, the issues are MUSICALLY geographical and generational.


It’s only a musical issue in the sense that we’re not talking about French cooking or raising poodles. The issue of strict compás vs. rubato in soleá is indeed geographical. If you hear soleá played at a marchlike pace, even por medio, it doesn’t mean it’s soleá por bulería. It means you’re listening to soleá in Utrera, or interpreted by a singer from Utrera or someone who cultivates the Utrera style. Historically, soleá was much tighter. I remember very slow soleá with extreme rubato as becoming popular in the late sixties, possibly in response to dancers’ need to dramatize (?).

quote:

I am not gonna bring up the issue of key here, but for me, por medio has SxB written all over it (Though it can be played por arriba).


There’s no precedent in flamenco for identifying any cante by what position it’s played in, or what speed it’s played at. Cejillas are becoming less common as young guitarists burn up the fretboard pulling out science-fiction chords.

Soleá is soleá, even when there’s no musical accompaniment, and regardless of the tempo. Ditto for SxB (BxS, bulerías al golpe, bulería pa’escuchar or whatever else you want to call it).

quote:

(Me) Guitarists under a certain age...50-ish??...no longer beat the foot in the way shown, but rather in twos: 2-4-6-8-10-12 etc.

Don't agree. I took a class with Diego del Morao. He could move back and forth between 1-2--4-5, 12-3--6-9, 12-3-6-8-10, 12-3-7-8-10, 12-2-4, and the weirdest (but coolest) 12-+-3-+-6-+-9-+- 4against3).


Actually, that’s an exception that proves the rule. Diego is one of the few young guitarists with a strong background in traditional toque…his teacher was Carbonero, and he grew up in an atmosphere of respect for classic flamenco. It’s logical he taps sixes part of the time even when he’s playing twelves.

quote:

With that in mind, I turn to Pedro Pena as quoted in Caballero's Cante FLamenco. He says that the guitarist must know when to push, when to hold back...etc. It is a quote I have mentioned on more than one occasion. He is really saying that you must know the cante very well and only then can you push.


That was Diego del Gastor’s theory too. There were singers who refused to sing with him. He’d have been right in fashion today however…when singers weren’t looking, guitarists commandeered the driver’s seat.

quote:

A general "rule" that is often thrown around is that guitarists must wait until the singer resolves. While this is something that should not be made trivial, it is also not a rule.


It used to be a rule. Cante has never been the same since it was “revoked”. Not long before his death, the great Marote said he could no longer accompany cante because young singers were always waiting for him to play certain chords instead of leading. As a singer I can tell you “premature resolution” is hideously annoying. Just last night on Jerez radio we discussed a guitarist who was doing precisely that for el Negro del Puerto. There’s a new way of dealing with cante that works like that because singers are now willing to relinquish control in exchange for cool-sounding accompaniment.

quote:

Guitarists internalize rhythms and harmonies in a very specific way. Beat 10 in solea, for example, is a cadential point. If the guitarist is very flexsible, like Paco, he can wait until the singer resolves around beat 1 or 3, at which point the guitarist can resolve at beat 4. The PROBLEM is, that most guitarists do not hear beat 4 as a resolution.


No experienced guitarist has any trouble displacing resolutions to 4 or anywhere else, and make it sound good.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 0:39:00

C. Vega

 

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

Estela-----Bless you!!!
An experienced, sensible and knowledgeable voice amidst a clutter of largely clueless flamenco wannabees.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 5:06:07
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 5:34:00
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 5:40:53
 
rombsix

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

No.

That is all 1-2 4-5 as far as I can tell.

12 + (of 1) 3 + (of 4).

12-1--2-3-4-5--6-7-8-9-10-11-
12...+...3...+...6..+...9....+...


So you mean he taps on 12, then on the "and of 1" then on 3, then on the "and of 4" then on 6 then on the "and of 7" then on 9 and on the "and of 10?"


12 and 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 and 11 and

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 8:08:52
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 8:18:03
 
rombsix

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

Yup. Crazy huh. And that was in 2000, before he got big.


Man, my head nearly explodes due to over-processing when I try to tap 1,2-4,5 while playing just chording compas por buleria. I'm reluctant to even try this new tapping method as I'm afraid it will bring forth the end of El Rumbero. And I just turned 26 - I'm too young!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 8:24:23
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 8:30:51
 
zata

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

Excuse the disorganized response, I'm racing out the door for a flight to Canada. I know it's rude not to keep track of who writes what, but for the sake of speed I usually answer without getting involved in personal identities, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

quote:

Not sure what your point is. My point comes from anthropology. People make music in space and time and if you take away space and time (which is physically impossible) then there is no music. Therefore these are musical issues. If Utr4era plays at, in your terminology, a different pace, then it is because a group of people (in time and space) have agreed to do so. This might be an aesthetic choice but it affects the music and is therefore musical.

The universe is made up of atoms and molecules, so this is actually a molecular question. On this type of forum however, and in keeping with the title of the thread, the relevant point is soleá is played with rubato in some areas, and at a steady pace in others, which is, by definition, a geographical distinction.

Nevertheless it is true that soleá is always done by human people who exist in the time-space continuum. The same tends to be true of siguiriya, fandangos, caracoles and quite possibly other cantes as well.

quote:

BS. That is not buleria por Solea either. Rosas was traditionally in E (Por Arriba), Serrana is por Arriba and aside from the cante, can be recognized for this. If people begin to change things out of boredom or sheer desire for something novel, then yes, any key will do. Your statement, however is misleading


It's not clear what is "not bulería por soleá either". A cante is a cante, it is not a toque or a baile. Even if you play the wrong accompaniment, the cante does not lose its identity. Again, you're relying on the guitar position, E (not "por arriba" which in Spain is also called Mi-Fa or Fa-Mi and is only compatible with modal cante). Rosas is a cante. If sung by a man, it tends to fall into E position due to the physical nature of the guitar's fret-board. When sung by a woman however, it nudges closer to A position (in response to the guitarist's need not to play on the 7th fret or more). In fact, most of the positions you might think of as "traditional" are the result of the specific range of a given cante, and the register of a masculine voice: women didn't used to be professional singers, and mostly sang without accompaniment.

You're confusing key and position. Keys don't change, and are identified by the scale of the cante. Position is a changeable guitar reference with little real importance. I remember someone mentioned alegrías being identified as such because of its major key. The soleá de Carapiera is in major key...any position...and is always a soleá. There are cantiñas with excursions into the minor key. To study cante, listen to cante.

Like soleá por bulería, serrana is a cante, and is only identified by itself, regardless of whether it is being accompanied musically, or is being accompanied badly, or is being played in a position other than E or without any sort of accompaniment. There is no precedent for any cante to be identified by the position in which it's played. Guitar teachers, for the sake of expediency, will sometimes tell students things like alegrías is in C, mirabrás is in E and so on, even when they know it's not really true. You can't present the enormity of flamenco to students in one swell foop.

quote:

No such thing as an exception that proves the rule but I like how you pulled that out of your hat. Let's see, classes with Paco Fernandez, Nino Jero, Canito, Paco Jimeno, Paco Jarana. All of them tapped many ways when they did in fact tap.

All guitarists, singers and dancers feel bulerías in a variety of ways from one moment to the next, it's the nature of bulerías, it's what makes the form so endlessly fascinating. Nevertheless, the binary beat is the only one that holds the many layers together, which is why it's what most people are marking most of the time. Watch guitarists' feet and you'll immediately see they beat in twos the vast majority of the time.

quote:

Theory is practice (Pierre Bourdieu, Wittgenstein, Foucault). Study any recording whether CD or YouTube, and you will find plenty of places where guitarist (well-respected ones who do in fact respect the cante) nudge the singer. Think of all the jerezanos who resolve the buleria on beat 4 of the final compas. Are they ALL finishing early and therefore disrespecting the cante...or...are they nudging the singer...or...have they conventionalized that way of ending (musical and geographical choice if they did)?

You are clearly using a different definition for "resolve". A guitarist who is familiar with cante recognizes certain melodic paths and knows at what point the singer is definitely going to land in a given chord. This is not the same as what (too many) young guitarists do, which is pave the way for the melody, playing the chord before the singer has signalled it. I'm not talking about anything observed on youtube, but from experience with dozens of guitarists, good, bad and ugly. Being in the singer's "hot-seat" gives a different perspective.

quote:

I do concede that everything you say is probably true...but as I said, practices are located in time and space.

They say Einstein didn't have compás.

quote:

Any analysis of recording prior to 1970 reveals my point, which is...sometimes people do not do what they say they do. There are examples everywhere of pre-1970 guitarists resolving before the singer.

I began singing in 1960, and without a doubt the specific issue I'm referring to did not surface until the seventies. You're talking about something else.
quote:

Case in point: Camaron and Paco Cada Vez Que Nos Miramos.
The letra at 2:09. Camaron resolves a smidgeon after Paco. Does that mean Paco is wrong? NO. But he did resolve first. Hmm.

Like I said, the 1970's. Paco and Camarón introduced cante "arrangements". You're right, I remember hearing Paco jump the gun with Camarón, and at the time thought it was something that would be a passing fad.

quote:

Is Carrion not experienced, respected, and accomplished? He goes out of compas all over the place.

I've sung with Carrión many times. He does not have a compás problem. He is a brilliant accompanist and singer with a profound knowledge of cante. For this reason he was the most logical choice to play for traditional singers like Chocolate or Chano. Before click-tracks altered listeners' perception, compás was a powerful pulse, not units of 12 delivered in neat packages. If you have to count out a Gerardo falseta to see if it's in compás, alarm bells ought to ring.

Chord resolutions can literally fall on any beat or non-beat. It's the guitarist's job to make it sound "right". Changing on 3 and 10 is a fine way to approach learning about accompaniment, but will only take you so far.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 9:38:45
 
mezzo

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to zata

quote:

The universe is made up of atoms and molecules, so this is actually a molecular question

excellent

I really enjoy reading your posts. Very interesting infos and analyse on. Thanks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 11:23:24
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 17:56:59
 
zata

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

In fact, Manolo Sanlucar refutes what you say in his book in which he explains that the (EXCUSE ME) por arriba position is THE key for Serranas.


Racing out the door, plane to catch... But this requires only private introspection to see the "proof".

Neither Manolo nor Paco nor any other guitarist can force a singer to sing in a tone that strains his or her voice. This means that if a singer finds open arriba too high for any given cante, the guitarist then has the option of putting the cejilla around 10 arriba, or switching to medio (or some other position). What would be your choice? And would you have scolded Juan Talega whose gravelly voice could only deal with siguiriyas por arriba? Did you know that about a hundred years ago everything was played por medio (according to guitar scholar Norberto Torres)?

There is no cante in the flamenco repertoire with an obligatory position. Nowadays even medio and arriba are becoming old-fashioned. You either misunderstood what Sanlúcar wrote, or he was referring to instrumental serranas.

Good luck with your studies....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 18:26:14
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2011 20:21:50
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

Yup. Crazy huh. And that was in 2000, before he got big.


Man, my head nearly explodes due to over-processing when I try to tap 1,2-4,5 while playing just chording compas por buleria. I'm reluctant to even try this new tapping method as I'm afraid it will bring forth the end of El Rumbero. And I just turned 26 - I'm too young!


Guys, that is just a change of feel to triplets in tangos. it is a no brainer and happens even with cante accomp or baile accomp all the time. Check jose merce with vicente amigo, the track 3 buleria. You can swap any falsetas of buleria and tango that way if you want. Also, 6 tuplets in tientos works great too.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 19:17:06
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Estela-----Bless you!!!
An experienced, sensible and knowledgeable voice amidst a clutter of largely clueless flamenco wannabees.


Finally! we are saved!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 19:18:15
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to zata

quote:

They say Einstein didn't have compás.


He did, but relative to c.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 19:24:07
 
XXX

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo

c²!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 19:29:30
 
orsonw

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Yet they came to be associated with particular keys (hmmm). Now, we can say (and you do) that no cante is dependent on key or position. The reality, however, is that at certain times, in certain places, key/position matters. The granaina has always been played in the second position (in relation to where the cejilla or nut is).


At the moment I am working with a singer that sings Granaina at capo 8. This is possible but I feel very limited. Can anyone suggest what to do, can I change key and capo lower down? Or will that mean those typical guitar granaina phrases will not be possible?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:11:31
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:13:45
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:29:32
 
Estevan

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to orsonw

quote:

At the moment I am working with a singer that sings Granaina at capo 8.

Ouch...

quote:

This is possible but I feel very limited. Can anyone suggest what to do, can I change key and capo lower down? Or will that mean those typical guitar granaina phrases will not be possible?


Have you tried capo at 3, and play por arriba? Then the distinctive granaína cadential twiddles and slide will be on the 5th string. It might work (I'm not within range of a guitar so can't try it).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:30:27
 
Estevan

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

I would say play it on eight. Although it limits you, it will aslo force you to play up higher on the neck.

And you can take inspiration from (for example) the recordings of Marote accompanying Fernanda, where everything is played at the umpteenth fret! (It's another dimension...)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:32:26
 
orsonw

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Estevan

Thank you for the replies, I'm ignorant of music theory but I suspected there was no easy solution.

quote:

Have you tried capo at 3, and play por arriba?


I did try this but couldn't get the Granaina aire so well. (Maybe I need to work more on it.) Of course the Cante can still be sung over this but it didn't feel right to me.
I think I will follow Romerito's suggestion and struggle on with capo 8.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2011 21:45:18
 
Rmn

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Guest

quote:

And you can take inspiration from (for example) the recordings of Marote accompanying Fernanda, where everything is played at the umpteenth fret! (It's another dimension...)


thanks for this tip. It's so nice to discover all these great artists here on the forum
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2011 7:57:21
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

Thank you for the replies, I'm ignorant of music theory but I suspected there was no easy solution.

quote:

Have you tried capo at 3, and play por arriba?


I did try this but couldn't get the Granaina aire so well. (Maybe I need to work more on it.) Of course the Cante can still be sung over this but it didn't feel right to me.
I think I will follow Romerito's suggestion and struggle on with capo 8.


When Granaina gets coupled with malagueña, you MUST play in E arriba or at least the SAME key whatever it is for both. Copy tomatito:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2011 15:05:14
 
estebanana

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Finally! we are saved!


I can feel it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2011 17:14:33
 
orsonw

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RE: Solea - Rubato vs. Out of compas (in reply to estebanana

Thanks for the advice Ricardo.

I am starting to enjoy the sonic qualities of being up at 8 rather than just feeling the limitations. And this particular singer sounds better at 8 than anywhere else.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2011 7:02:46
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