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Just struggling a little with trying to accompany this beautiful solea. I get it until 1:20 and then he starts singing "se la voy a contar a la tierra" on the 6 1/2 beat
From there it does a typical G7 to C progression as if he had started on 12 1/2. But I can't work out how to interpret it. Is it best to consider that he has started on 6 1/2 and carry on with the compas or just learn to take half a compas in and out to make it all fit.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
Each of these have the naked cante versions you can practice with in that thread, go to page 1 and look at the table of contents Florian put up. Please note the half compas or non-12 singing phrases and how I delt with them in each example:
I remember there was also moneo different version I do on page 10 both in por medio and por Arriba.
As a general rule, when things feel crossed, you put G7 on count 10 (por Arriba), then mark clearly the next compas counts 1-2-3 with G7-G7-C, then resolve 7-10 with normal F to E. Continue the next compas with “normal” compas as if there is no singing, even though the singer is finishing lyrics of the final line there.
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
quote:
As a general rule, when things feel crossed, you put G7 on count 10 (por Arriba), then mark clearly the next compas counts 1-2-3 with G7-G7-C, then resolve 7-10 with normal F to E. Continue the next compas with “normal” compas as if there is no singing, even though the singer is finishing lyrics of the final line there.
Thanks Ricardo!!!
The bit above was especially useful it does exactly this on the line "el sentio te desvaria".... (2:05) I need to spend a bit more time going through your videos too. Turned out the singer I practiced with could start the letra on 6 or 12 so we made it work in a few different ways. Pretty much there. Will upload some audio soon.
Thats some serious transcribing btw I made a rough start on this just to catch the skeleton structure of it.
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RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
If anyone is interested I did my own transcription of this item (not necessarily better than Ricardo's!). I also published an article analyzing it a while back, at: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/jj_pubs/305/
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RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
Finally got to meet with a singer again and work through this. I realised I had completly over complicated it for myself by taking analysing the detail of the guitar and not the melody of the singing. To ammend that I just had these notes which I basically grabbed from Normans site. I knew that AB sections go to the Am and back and the CD sections to G7 and then the macho letras hold onto Am for longer before hitting G7 etc.
I appreciate the hard work of analysing the music to the extent of scoring the whole piece, but I found this really useful in practical context. One A4 sheet I could glance at and check the overall structure of the piece. Anyone else make notes like these? Would love to hear what other details you add.
Letra 1- cantes de inicio - Joaquín de la Paula A ¿A quién le contaré yo B la fatiguillita que estoy pasando C se la voy a contar a la tierra D cuando me estén enterrando
AB-AB-CD-CD
Letra 2 – macho hold onto Am for longer then G7 C and resolve A Que no me querias B cuando alante tu me tienes C el sentio te desvaria
ABC
Letra 3 A Dices que tu a mi no me quieres B pena yo no tengo ninguna C porque yo con tu querer D no tenia hecha escritura
AB-BB-CD
Letra 4 cante based on la Serneta 1 melody? A a ti nadie te quiera B ven que yo a ti te querre C el daño que me hiciste D yo te lo recompensare
ABCD
Letra 5 – macho hold onto Am for longer then G7 C and resolve Que no me quieria...
Major letra to end.. two compasses like alegrias speeding up the tempo. Ay que te quiero y tu no lo sabes tu eres la causa de todos mis males
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
Letra 1 is actually ABBBCDCD.
Letra 2, you don’t necessarily hold Am longer...best to change on 10 as normal. What happens musically with this style and almost all other ABC letras is actually A, skip B musically, (the return to E melodically) then CD, which can also repeat. So B is omitted musically. So of course ABC means that A and C rhyme where as B and D rhyme with 4 line verse. But for the accompanist it is important to understand regardless if A repeats that we skip down to the cambio for the B line verse. Also the zero verse extension can be added to the B line of verse without hurting the rhyme pattern (see buleria larga).
Letra 3, this is Andonda 1.
Letra 4, this is based on Serneta 1, but not exactly correct as he doesn’t reach up as high as the C note. This is his own personal creation, and is attributed to “juanTalega” himself.
Letra 5, it is unusual for a cantaor to repeat himself in a single performance. It gives a false impression of an “estribillo” or repeating chorus. I don’t call this style a “macho”, rather reserve that title for Joaquin 3 and similar styles. Joaquin 2 (this style) is referred to is a cante de transicion. Carol Whitney’s article calls this letra the “cambio”, and she makes a point to distinguish the term from the actual G7-C cadence.
Hope that helps a little. Cante accompaniment thread has some good stuff you should try.
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
Hi Ricardo,
Thats super useful thanks! I will change and add stuff. I have been delving back into the accompiament thread.. there is so much there... I have been working on the Miguel Povedas de buen aire for ages so must upload that soon.
quote:
Letra 2, you don’t necessarily hold Am longer...best to change on 10 as normal.......
This is really useful. I hadn't thought of it like that. I will go away and study some more :)
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
Interesting to watch the first letra sung slower here.
I wonder how aficionados of cante feel about his delivery of that melody. From what I have learned the classic way to do Joaquin 1 is different....Talega and many other old singers normally deliver 5 syllables in a row with notes B E E E E.....it is very distinct. What Cigala is doing is more like Serneta except he does not climb up to C on the first line, ending on G# more or less like Joaquin, but he does hit C on the second line like serneta. It is a mixture of the two styles IMO, and I am curious how aficionados view it, whether it is in good taste or not to do that, and how deliberate is it?
Perhaps this type of mixture is how the various styles were created to begin with...but then what constitutes “purity” for each style?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Help with Juan Talega Solea acco... (in reply to johnnefastis)
quote:
but like this version about a 2:30
Closer, but he also breaks the 5 syllables at the start into 3 plus 2 connected to the rest. And the repeat he does 4 syllables. Also the entire thing is nice and cuadrao. The purist in me doesn’t like it as much as mairena/Pavon/Talega versions that seem to adhere to a set structure/ concept about delivery.
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