Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Full Version)

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ToddK -> Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 11:27:26)

What's the consensus these days? When doing 3, 4, and 5 stroke ras,

are the fingers always cocked and flicked from the meat of the thumb,
or are they sometimes free finger?

I was just having a discusion with Skai over at Delcamp Classical forum, and
he claims its all free finger.

I jumped on top of him, and said No way! You have to cock and flick!!

What's the deal? Could i possibly have been playing flamenco all this
time and somehow missed this?
TK



Florian -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 11:51:41)

I for one have no idea what is the norm, but i always use cocked and flicked from the meat of the thumb, just cause u get more power and a more definitive sound.



duende -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 11:53:03)

i have a masterclass on video with Pedro cortes(i think its pedro)
and he claims that to have that flamenco "snap" you should shot them out from errrr the meat and not at all free. personaly i do what seems best for each situation.
if your going to keep a light accompaniment between fasetas and stuff i wouldnt lock the fingers up and make a loud rasgueado.



edgar884 -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 13:18:43)

Chuscales told me and others that you should bend the thumb like a hook and flick the fingers out from behind it. But the more you play the more the strokes become free. Thats my two cents Todd.

Seems to be pretty true as well, the more advanced the player the more the strokes become free.[:D]



Francisco -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 13:19:39)

I'm a noob, but the videos I've been watching all say to start out by using the meat on the palm to flick the fingers out. A couple of the videos do state that this is a beginner technique, and that you should eventually get a point where the meat of the palm is not used (Aarong Gilmartin & J. Serrano).



hassurbanipal -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 13:34:58)

I think it is the best way to push them from the meat of your palm. That is the only good way to get a clean strong sound I believe and maybe after a few years you get enough power in your fingers .....and then the wordl is yours to take

first your rasguedo takes manhattan and then it will probably take berlin....



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 15:03:48)

quote:

personaly i do what seems best for each situation.
if your going to keep a light accompaniment between fasetas and stuff i wouldnt lock the fingers up and make a loud rasgueado.


I 100% agree.
The rasgueado that you shoot away from your thumb are great for some things. Loud and clear, but with emphasis on the bass strings. The free is lighter and its easyer to make emphasis on the treble strings.

Learn and use both is my attitude.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 15:20:31)

i agree with Anders - i feel when i play free rasgueados i have much more control on them, especially when it comes to the treble strings...i could never get used to the other way...



guitarbuddha -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 15:52:09)

I find that I get a lot of power for hitting nails into a wall using a hammer.
Should I throw my toothpicks away ?



ToddK -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 15:59:41)

quote:

I find that I get a lot of power for hitting nails into a wall using a hammer.
Should I throw my toothpicks away ?


I prefer dental floss actually.[:)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 16:01:55)

[:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 16:03:19)

Rule number one: don't argue about flamenco techniques on a classical guitar forum![8|][:D]

Rule number two: there are different ways to do rasgueado. Depends on the sound you want. I for one have never flicked my fingers off of my "palm". But some folks have REALLY long fingers and can't help it. And if my fingers are "free" ie, not flicking from the thumb, they are actually not TOTALLY free. Actually they rub against each other, and that way they do "flick" off sort of. No one I know does rasgueados with the fingers spread way out, at least from the "starting" position, all the fingers touch each other before they attack the strings.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 6 2007 16:17:59)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 17:42:05)

Think rest stroke versus free stroke Romerito.

A good rest stroke ( building resistance on the string ) teaches you to use your finger with more weight which can help you get a more powerful free stroke.

Noone good dispenses with free strokes because they are often musically appropriate and technically expedient.

Back to Todds original point. In a classical piece that uses a little rasguado for effect, like the Aranjuez or all the Turina flamenco pastiche stuff, a really bright snappy rasguado might distort the musical effect of a phrase or section. Conversely classical players using un-cocked rasg. as a small and underdeveloped part of their technique often sound muddy, weak and unrhythmical.

Record yourself both ways and see what you think best serves the needs of each phrase with wherever your technique is that day.

So, well ...... do both to the best of your ability then choose.

David.



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 20:08:34)

I must admit, I never do any rasgueados with the fingers pushing "cocked" against the thumb or another part of the hand.
It feels very "uncontrollable" to me as a "general" rasgueado, although I must admit, I hear players using it to great effect.
I find curling the fingers up very tightly sort of locks them anyway, so it needs quite a "pulse" of force to straighten them out (ie they don't unfurl gradually).
Also, I find that way you can control the ending much more that the "explosive" technique.
That's just my experience, but there are thousands of rasgueados, as you know already.
Doesn't matter how you get the sound you want, so long as you get it. [:D]

cheers

Ron



Doitsujin -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 21:39:29)

I mix it. It depends on which sounding result you want. If you wanna have softer-rasguados. Dont cock them. If you wanna have hard agressive masculine hammerrasguado-sound. ... cock them. There are more than 2 options to cock them. I use 3 different cocking technics and also without. So.. it really depends on what you wanna hear at the end.
Some people have stronger hands or arent much acrobatic with fingers than others.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 6 2007 22:14:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron M.
Doesn't matter how you get the sound you want, so long as you get it.


Agreed Ron.

David.



el ted -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 7:34:13)

Both! If I am playing at a fast tempo I haven't time to retract and flick every time.



sianturi -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 16:29:46)

Hi TK,

i don't know what consensus there exists, but I can tell you what I found about that question in these days.

Cock and flick the fingers from the flesh of the thumb or palm can give your rasgueado a very sharp, loud, twangy sound that is ideal for 'special effects'. Disadvantage is that it needs time to prepare, so it cannot be used in all situations. Also there is a little time penalty after you've done it, because the fingers tend to 'get lost' from the impact.

Nevertheless I found out that you can develop your rasgueado to have this twangy sound _always_ by building the tension directly on the strings. This is how it goes:
- Move your hand nearer to tapa, into strings, when you believe you cannot go further, another 10 mm, please
- If you are near the strings your nails come into better position, the plane of the tapa is nearly the same as the plane of your nails.
- Cock and flick the _string_ by pushing it with nail towards tapa
- String will hit the fingerboard with more or less string impact, giving you the sound you want
- Doing like this you will notice that your thumb wants to go behind 6th string to compensate for the pressure.

I use this style since 2 weeks and it actually changed my life. There are advantages only, no drawbacks. More control, speed, absolutely flamenco sounding, less effort, no preparation time, no dead time after, suitable for continuous rasgueado, everything!

Thanks,
Sianturi



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Doitsujin -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 18:03:37)

Isnt cocking allways a good thing? hehe (Except in combination with gays...sorry.)..... COME ON MAAN COME ON!!! WWHOOOOOO! Damn, some weeks ago I wanted to take some drinks with my girlfriend in a nice bar and got in one of those rainbowbars. [&:][&:] I was suprised coz there were no leathergays dancing tango argentino.... But different strange..... well..ok.. After we left it, as rapidly as we could, I buyed a trousers. And the sellers were gays!! And 3 gays were trying many clothes in 2 lockers, so there were no free ones left. Well,.. the seller was a nice person and told me that I could try the trouthers I chose in the cellar if I want, coz the 3 Guys need moe time. There was a little thing, he told me that the room downstairs isnt camera saved, so he would have to go with me downstairs where I could try the trouthers!! MAAAN WHAT THE??? AAAAHHH!!! Well,... I went downstairs with him and took my girlfriend with me. [:o]I was happy, there was a changingroom..huh..[:-] Well... forget it. Have to play in a danceshool now,.. Im late. [&o]



guitarbuddha -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 20:06:35)

? [&:]



Ron.M -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 20:22:35)

quote:

Cock and flick the fingers from the flesh of the thumb or palm can give your rasgueado a very sharp, loud, twangy sound that is ideal for 'special effects'.


Yeah and "special effect" is the main point IMO.
Players who use this constantly tend to sound very impressive at first, but 10 minutes later it becomes boring.

Much like Ricardo's "Woody-Woodpecker" analogy.
A nice touch, but done "generally", actually becomes even annoying.

On this subject, I think most amateurs play in an on/off.. focus/autopilot way.
That is they'll focus on the complicated falsetas and finish off in an autopilot way to catch their breath and think about the next passage.
Thing is, the seasoned listener tends to home in on these little "autopilot" parts IMO, which quickly separates them from the pros, who have learned from years and years of playing to measure and balance their playing as a whole and not to overdo a neat little idea.

cheers

Ron



ToddK -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 20:47:21)

wow, this is all very interesting.

I was thinking i would get a very black and white sort of answer.
I was positive people like Paco, etc always cocked the fingers, all the time.
From what i remember, my father always flicked from the base of the thumb.

Really cool to read all these thoughts and views. Food for thought, and i
will look at ras a bit more open mindedly now.

Thanks all.
TK



Conrad -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 20:59:26)

Oh, Kevin... how you keep torturing me with mention of those vids, hehehe,

and Doitsujin... how you keep torturing me with laughter. I don't even know what this post is all about but I still laughed...

For the record, I almost always flick unless I want a subtle phrase ending.

Oh, and Doitsujin, you only got three "cocking" techniques, that's it? You need to study up, son! I got like 8 at last count... They all produce different sounds... coming from my blonde bombshell... [;)] hehe

Con



Doitsujin -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 21:06:39)

Hahha[:D][:D]



ykabban -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 7 2007 23:17:01)

Doing rasgueados without loading will always result in a half-ass rasgueo, no matter who you are. If anyone disagrees, post a clip of a total free-fingers approach and prepare to be creamed.[:)]



aloysius -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 8 2007 1:39:29)

When I've looked closely at the hands of teachers I've had (mostly from Seville) I've found that the majority of the time they do Rasgueos exactly as Ricardo described - NOT all cocked against the thumb, but cocked against each other - the ring finger pressing sideways against the middle, the middle against the index, the index against the side of the thumb. All fingers against the thumb will give a special "hard and dirty" effect, however fingers cocked against each other can give a light effect while being crisp and powerful IMO - e.g. vicente in the Cordoba DVD.

- Aloysius



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Ricardo -> RE: Rasgueados= fingers cocked? or free? (Mar. 8 2007 6:00:25)

quote:

Isnt cocking allways a good thing? hehe (Except in combination with gays...sorry.)..... COME ON MAAN COME ON!!! WWHOOOOOO! Damn, some weeks ago I wanted to take some drinks with my girlfriend in a nice bar and got in one of those rainbowbars. I was suprised coz there were no leathergays dancing tango argentino.... But different strange..... well..ok.. After we left it, as rapidly as we could, I buyed a trousers. And the sellers were gays!! And 3 gays were trying many clothes in 2 lockers, so there were no free ones left. Well,.. the seller was a nice person and told me that I could try the trouthers I chose in the cellar if I want, coz the 3 Guys need moe time. There was a little thing, he told me that the room downstairs isnt camera saved, so he would have to go with me downstairs where I could try the trouthers!! MAAAN WHAT THE??? AAAAHHH!!! Well,... I went downstairs with him and took my girlfriend with me. I was happy, there was a changingroom..huh.. Well... forget it. Have to play in a danceshool now,.. Im late.


uh....
he?



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