Ricardo -> RE: modern vs traditional (Nov. 4 2006 22:40:37)
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and therefore has been an indirect influence on Paco. Well I have no problem with indirect influence, in fact alot of that was what I had in the orginal post. Paco had influence of sound and style Brazillian/Jazz fusion, etc. More often than not what he used was the specific personal nuanes of the musician he worked with. For example Paco plays Mclaughlin things, but he is not thinking like a jazz player at all. He does not compose with the idea of harmony that McLaughlin has. He goes for a sound and explores with his fingers and ear, but jazz players know where one chord goes relative to another. Paco's chord usage is about what his fingers like to do, the flamenco way, not the standard jazz style comping one would learn in Jazz school. Even in 1996 concert with trio he still plays the same way, not doing the voicings of chords Mc and Dimeola use. You think he is still nervous after all these years? I too understand when someone describes a flamenco player as "jazzy" more or less what he means, but the orginal question Trad vs modern I felt was trying to get at more than the generalizations. quote:
Rhythm is very important but if you took all the modern harmony(which comes directly or indirectly from jazz IMO) out of flamenco it would sound closer to the traditional. You mean, leave the synchopation in and remove or simplfy the "jazz" harmonies of modern flamenco would result in more "traditional sounding" flamenco? Noway in my opinion. That is the whole thing I was getting at. Rhythm is WAY more important than that in defining modern flamenco. Play Escudero/Sabicas/R. Montoya music note for note, but throw in the synchopation/dynamics and it is gonna sound "jazzy" or at least modern to many. G7/D-Db7b5-C. You keep giving the same ii-V-I with tritone sub, brazillian walk down move. I already admited it was a colorful substitute for the old school chromatics common in old school flamenco. And in my orginal post I sited this kind of thing as an exception related to Brazillian guitar. There are alot better candidates for trying to find the jazz mind at work in flamenco guitar. And normal trad flamenco uses often very interesting dissonance and chromatic voice leadings that have nada to do with jazz. But guys like Pedro Cortes read and write and study music and do fusions deliberately, as do many others that have caught the "Jazz" bug. Alot of guys in flamenco, w/out schooling, searching for the "jazz" sound or cool harmonies, have made up their own thing, their own "grips" on the fingerboard. Trying to anazlyze from the point of view of jazz style "changes" is pointless, just because it sounds "jazzy". How would you describe the function of this chord in A phrygian (related to flamenco) and where in jazz/Brazillian have you seen it used that it could have come from to influence modern flamenco? One of paco's favorites. You think Mclaughlin taught him? I dont think so. Bar 3rd fret, G-Db-F-C-D-G, then resolve to A, any way you want, scale down, arp, Bb-A or Bb7-A, etc. I honestly believe flamenco guitar, modern or traditional has it's OWN vocabulary, perhaps inspired by the sounds of Spanish classical, American Jazz, fusion, Brazillian, Argentina, whatever, but ultimately FUNCTIONING it's own way in the context of flamenco. Fingering of chords is a big part of the style, more important than harmonic purpose as learned in theory books or learned for the sake of comping to a chart. Ricardo PS, thinking about ii-V-I, I realize when accomp. cante how the "cambios" often have chromatic walk downs in traditional accompaniment. For example, in A phrygian the voice gives B in the scale and the guitar typically plays E7, then resolves to something else like Bb-A, or C7-F. And when doing C7-F, no one ever put the F# in the bass on the way down before 1980 you think? I will hunt when I get a chance.[:@]
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