What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Full Version)

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devilhand -> What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 21:03:34)

I know we afficionados love flamenco and particularly flamenco guitar. But in life one can't have it all. Let me start.

What bugs me is the difficulty of learning flamenco guitar. I always need a warm-up to get it going. Normally when it comes to playing other genres of music on guitar, I grab the guitar and can play with ease right from the start. Just fine. But it's not the case in flamenco.

Another thing is flamenco music has too many notes. To play a short musical phrase or a simple motive you have to play a bunch of notes squeezed together in one beat or a bar. Legados and ornaments make it sound even more busy. It can be sometimes tiresome for a listener. Regardless of this, I still love and enjoy flamenco.

Is there anything you don't like about flamenco? Share your honest opinion with us.



Stu -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 21:40:27)

This is a good angle for a rather lively thread potentially.

'Flamenco music has too many notes!'

Might be the quote of year and we're only 2 days in!

Nursery ryhmes are where it's at! 4 or 5 notes that repeat. Easy to learn, not too taxing on the listener.

I guess I can relate to the point you make about how much effort it needs to play/practice. I struggle to find energy and time these days so the guitar often stays in its case. But I blame my wife and kids not the flamenco! 😄

I'll think about what a don't like and come back to you



JasonM -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 22:10:52)

quote:

Might be the quote of year and we're only 2 days in!

Nursery ryhmes are where it's at! 4 or 5 notes that repeat. Easy to learn, not too taxing on the listener.


[:D][:D]

Just get a reverb and delay pedal and you can hold one note per compas cycle



Fawkes -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 22:19:41)

"Too many notes"

That makes me wonder this: for any given palo, what is the minimum number of notes per unit of time (measure, beat, whatever is most sensible) to successfully denote the palo?

Shouldn't playing simply but with correct compás be the focus for learning?



orsonw -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 23:27:20)

"With the guitar I've suffered a great deal, but when I've had a good time, the suffering seemed worthwhile." Paco de Lucia



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 23:35:11)

Nice, a rare question on a flamenco forum :)

Guitaristically, learning the structure and the many used phrases can take a while. Learning how to accompany cante and baile can be frustrating as well as there's little material out there to teach you, so you have to rely on videos and figuring things out for yourself by sitting through countless classes. Oh and let's not forget finding "the one" guitar you're happy with - may never really happen.

I'm sure the dance is equally as frustrating. For a guitarist, it can be tedious to sit through the aforementioned classes, many people all crashing their feet into the ground like their life depended on it. They only learn later on that it needn't be that powerful, but very few make it to an acceptable level.

The cante can be the most frustrating for most people new to flamenco, sometimes it can be unbearable, then your ears get used to it and eventually you start liking it. Of course there'll always be artists who irritate you with their style or tone of voice.

Finally the one thing I can't stand is a lack of originality - in any genre. I'm finding it difficult to warm to many artists who seem to be technically amazing but they lack the ability to tell stories with their music. In a genre so tied to tradition it's a difficult task of course.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 2 2023 23:42:28)

quote:

Is there anything you don't like about flamenco? Share your honest opinion with us.


no.



chester -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 0:31:59)

I don't like the gatekeeping that I encountered as a beginner (both on this forum and in real life).
Things like:
- "Flamenco is more complex/superior to other genres"
- "You must go to Spain to earn the respect of the real flamencos"
- "Haha look at this youtube video of a Fakemenco poser"
I get that the gypsies feel like they have some "ownership" over the music that they invented, but hearing this stuff from anglos is [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
What bugs me is the difficulty of learning flamenco guitar. I always need a warm-up to get it going. Normally when it comes to playing other genres of music on guitar, I grab the guitar and can play with ease right from the start. Just fine. But it's not the case in flamenco.

Another thing is flamenco music has too many notes. To play a short musical phrase or a simple motive you have to play a bunch of notes squeezed together in one beat or a bar. Legados and ornaments make it sound even more busy. It can be sometimes tiresome for a listener. Regardless of this, I still love and enjoy flamenco.

TBH it sounds like you're conflating Flamenco with "Virtuoustic Flamenco". Sure the rhythms can be a little tricky at first but you don't have to be Vicente Amigo to play something decent.
For example this take on a traditional siguiriyas falseta:



Stu -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 9:09:14)

quote:

no


hahaha! Yeah this is the answer really.

All the things Richard mentions are gripes but also really what is the appeal in some ways. the struggle and how tough it is are directly related to being non spanish living outside of andalucia no? but that exotic remove is part of the attraction

and the things chester mentions are not really the fault of flamenco music or flamenco, but more some toxic stuff put on it by people involved or otherwise.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 11:49:31)

quote:

I don't like the gatekeeping that I encountered…..
TBH it sounds like you're conflating Flamenco with "Virtuoustic Flamenco".


[8|][:D]



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 12:06:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawkes

"Too many notes"

That makes me wonder this: for any given palo, what is the minimum number of notes per unit of time (measure, beat, whatever is most sensible) to successfully denote the palo?

Shouldn't playing simply but with correct compás be the focus for learning?


The guitar does not sustain, it is practically a percussion instrument. Ask a drummer to play “less notes” and see what happens to the rhythm. In that sense, the slower the tempo, the more notes are needed to keep the rhythm relevant. On electric guitar one can play and hold a single note for several measures. Rhythm is what it is. The lament of the OP is that in order to play the basics of flamenco guitar, a virtuosic ability is needed. The irony is when students develop rhythm skills, basic arpegio etc, to play basic compas and falsetas, they stop thinking of it as “virtuosic” and only things like “picado” are virtuoso skills, because all the rest is simply musical “feeling”. The irony is that is EXACTLY what virtuosic is. Doing fast movements and controlling the feeling and dynamics.



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 17:43:57)

I see some of the foro members being reluctant to reply for whatever reason or being a bit restrained in their comments. But there are honest answers from Hendrix and chester. Those who say no are lying.

I forgot to mention palmas. Palmas and drumming knuckles on a table are maybe the most annoying feature in flamenco. Imagine too many notes, legados etc. and palmas all together.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 17:54:39)

Tontería



mark indigo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 18:00:15)

quote:

I forgot to mention palmas. Palmas and drumming knuckles on a table are maybe the most annoying feature in flamenco. Imagine too many notes, legados etc. and palmas all together.


why not add the guitar, the rhythm, phrygian scale, the melodies, the chords, the singing and the dancing...[8|][8|]

EDIT: for anyone wondering, I was being HEAVILY sarcastic here... I actually really like palmas, nudillos, guitarra, compas, cante, baile y todo.



mark indigo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 18:02:28)

quote:

Is there anything you don't like about flamenco? Share your honest opinion with us.


soft flamenco-pop

people telling me what I should or shouldn't like or think or do (i.e. listen to or play), which is a thing I dislike in life generally but it seems to happen a lot with flamenco.



BarkellWH -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 18:13:52)

There is nothing I don't like about flamenco when we are talking actual flamenco. I like it all, although I'm less impressed with those who try to be cute and stretch the genre to include non-traditional instruments like a bass and a harmonica, which Paco in his later years attempted.

What I really dislike, though, are fraudsters like Rosalia who try and pawn off their "popster" music as "flamenco," when it is anything but. I equally dislike so-called "aficionados" (a few who have posted on the Foro) who aid and abet the fraudsters with lines such as (and here I am quoting): "We need new flamenco, urban flamenco, fusion flamenco, indie flamenco, dance flamenco, avant garde flamenco, experimental flamenco or whatever other labels they come up with."

That line, as you might have guessed, or even remembered, was in defense of Rosalia as a "flamenco artist," the likes of which, in the poster's opinion, "will keep flamenco alive." Better it die a natural death than be unrecognizably on life support as "urban flamenco," "fusion flamenco" or some other catchy moniker.

Lest any members think I am "trashing" Rosalia's art, and that of others claiming the mantle of flamenco when it is no such thing, I am not trashing her and the others for their art, which is in the "popster" realm. What I am criticizing is their claim to represent an art form they clearly do not represent. Even The New Yorker magazine was taken in, and they're a pretty sophisticated group. And I am afraid there are already some real flamencos who see some advantage in bending their art form in order to cash in on the zeitgeist.

Bill



henrym3483 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 18:19:01)

the feeling of being like a complete beginner each time i turn up to a flamenco workshop

[:D][:D][:D][:D]

that said, ive to come to accept the guys i got to for lessons/workshops are playing 6-8 hrs a day and gigging, and its their profession.

if they needed legal advice, they would also feel out of their depth, and maybe come to me.[:D]



silddx -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 18:20:47)

quote:

why not add the guitar, the rhythm, phrygian scale, the melodies, the chords, the singing and the dancing...


The Andalusian cadence is particularly irritating. Flamenco could have been so much more without such restrictions. The reason we have to learn so much of this nasty superfast stuff is to add at least a modicum of interest to this musical prison.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 19:07:56)

Purely personal preference, but I find that I'm not always in the mood for flamenco. Sometimes it's just too raw, too fundamental and intense in its emotion. It's most effective live, when you can be completely engrossed in the atmosphere. But just listening or practicing at home, particularly when cante is involved, it sometimes gets to be too much and I find myself going to music that's closer to my heart, like Brazilian jazz. This doesn't really have to do with cante being an "acquired taste" -- I like it just fine -- but I can only take so much of that degree of intensity at a time.

Agree 100% with chester as well regarding gatekeeping in the flamenco community, though thankfully that's not something I've encountered in a number of years now. I think if I run into it again, I'll check out much faster (and have a much more acerbic response) than I did when I was a teenager and didn't know any better than to let people with inferiority complexes push me around. It's a bit funny in retrospect, how insularity can foster this kind of stuff.



Stu -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 23:01:32)

quote:

Those who say no are lying.


You know what you're right! I ****ing hate flamenco! 😄😄 what have I been doing all these years!???

It's taken a curiously odd fellow on the foro to help me reach this epiphany!

Thanks...


Anyone wanna buy a guitar?



Stu -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 3 2023 23:09:19)

quote:

why not add the guitar, the rhythm, phrygian scale, the melodies, the chords, the singing and the dancing...


I always hated Andalucia.



mt1007 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 4:38:41)

I dislike the disinformation, the peeps that say so and so is good or bad without a way to musically credit or discredit whatever and whomever, ignorance by choice etc…



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 15:20:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Tontería

I think you must have encountered different opinions about flamenco throughout your long flamenco journey as a maestro and tocaor. You can tell us about them. I mean the negative ones.



silddx -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 15:25:24)

quote:

I think you must have encountered different opinions about flamenco throughout your long flamenco journey as a maestro and tocaor. You can tell us about them.


He does. Very often. Ricardo is extremely generous with his knowledge and experience.



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 15:39:59)

quote:

why not add the guitar, the rhythm, phrygian scale, the melodies, the chords, the singing and the dancing...

Ole! That's a positive attitude.

quote:

What I really dislike, though, are fraudsters like Rosalia who try and pawn off their "popster" music as "flamenco,"

She seems to be successful in doing this. If a flamenco artist can be a sell out, she's definitely a sell-out.

quote:

The Andalusian cadence is particularly irritating. Flamenco could have been so much more without such restrictions. The reason we have to learn so much of this nasty superfast stuff is to add at least a modicum of interest to this musical prison.

I know what you mean. If you listen to flamenco, sooner or later Andalusian cadence will sound like the most overused riff on guitar.
As for the speed, I can feel you. Sometimes I think to myself what the hell I'm doing. Fast picado cannot be music. But next day I come back to it and want to tame this beast.

quote:

Purely personal preference, but I find that I'm not always in the mood for flamenco. Sometimes it's just too raw, too fundamental and intense in its emotion.

I can relate to that. Siguiriya is a good example. But to me other palos don't evoke such emotions. Up tempo palos like Alegrias can do the opposite even though I don't want to listen to this opening part tirititrantran again and again.



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 15:44:26)

quote:

You know what you're right! I ****ing hate flamenco! 😄😄 what have I been doing all these years!???

It's taken a curiously odd fellow on the foro to help me reach this epiphany!

Thanks...

Anyone wanna buy a guitar?

It's not an odd fellow on the foro. Maybe it's an odd topic which can spread negative energy. I hope foro members are mentally strong enough and won't be affected negatively by this thread. All I can say is don't let it lose your flamenco passion. I know you can recover from this.



BarkellWH -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 16:11:55)

quote:

She seems to be successful in doing this. If a flamenco artist can be a sell out, she's definitely a sell-out.


Your cited quote above demonstrates you missed the point entirely. Your premise seems to be Rosalia is a flamenco artist who is a "sell-out." What Rosalia is is a popster masquerading (in her own mind) as a flamenco artist. In other words, not a "sell-out," but a fraud.

Bill



Schieper -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 16:41:47)

I do not like that:

- all songs are in Spanish.
- most of the singing sounds like strangling a cat.
- the seeming disdain for cante chico or anything that the gipsy kings made.

All the best wishes for 2023 :-)



Stu -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 21:58:12)

quote:

quote:

The Andalusian cadence is particularly irritating. Flamenco could have been so much more without such restrictions. The reason we have to learn so much of this nasty superfast stuff is to add at least a modicum of interest to this musical prison.

I know what you mean. If you listen to flamenco, sooner or later Andalusian cadence will sound like the most overused riff on guitar.
As for the speed, I can feel you. Sometimes I think to myself what the hell I'm doing. Fast picado cannot be music. But next day I come back to it and want to tame this beast.


Surely you know siddix is joking right?'
You are aren't you siddix?

I just don't know any more cos no one uses emojis! 😩

This thread sucks man.



silddx -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 4 2023 22:05:55)

Yes of course I am :)

I actually thought DH's response was a joke, but perhaps not.



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