RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 23 2021 16:36:28)

Rob, I’m mainly on your side because I’m hoping if I ever meet you you’ll buy rounds of beers.

Really, here’s another another angle- globalization- the market is bigger now and in the old days the 80’s the tuners going on European guitars were European and particularly Spanish guitars were coming from Fustero. It makes sense to distinguish between that which it came with and that which replaced it. I remember in 1997 -8 that a real first grade Fustero set went for 180 to 200 US and was considered an expensive tuner. Now we have a hand full of companies who’s names I will not list making pretty things for dilettante collectors and these expensive watch tuners cannot help a player find musical longitude. Only hard work finds longitude.
But we need dilettante collectors and in a sense we need stupid jewelry tuners because it keeps them interested long enough to find out why we actually are compelled to make guitars. And a few of them actually get it and see the essence that needs to be honored.

So don’t think for a Nanosecond you can out primadonna me in complaining bitterly about this conde conclave of clock collectors!




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 23 2021 18:28:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

quote:

Keep the Lannies on your Romanillos, for gods sake something he out in must be sacrosanct.

100% agree.


Well of course you agree because you and I both recognize that even putting $2000 Graf tuners would render his guitar a worthless hulk bereft of the tuners the master builder intended.


You both have to know I was kidding...

RNJ




RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 23 2021 20:17:58)

quote:

Rob, I’m mainly on your side because I’m hoping if I ever meet you you’ll buy rounds of beers.

I’ll buy rounds of beers, I’ll be happy to. Hopefully we’ll be in a place that serves free Tapas with them, but even if we aren’t, I’ll buy some rounds.

quote:

You both have to know I was kidding...

Richard, I thought you knew we knew.




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 24 2021 0:59:43)

Here are my Der Jung tuners in my guitar. I took the top of the line Gotoh’s off and used them on another house guitar and put these on three years ago. Apparently I was so absorbed in sone other task I didn’t even think it was necessary to put all eight screws in.



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RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 24 2021 1:19:13)

quote:

Here are my Der Jung tuners in my guitar.

Yep, those are the ones I meant. I have a few sets left but I want to get some more. At the time I bought my last batch they were still a heck of a bargain, not sure what they cost now...

LOL on the screws, you have the holes marked for drilling and everything. It’s kind of good you left them off, though, because it gives Ricardo an example of what a counter sunk hole looks like.




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 24 2021 1:50:48)

quote:

it gives Ricardo an example of what a counter sunk hole looks like.


I’m thrilled to serve as an example




Jonnycake -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 9:17:02)

I'll say it again its always an adventure here on foro and I always come away the wiser if not a little bruised!

re:those tuners..

Out of the blue the previous and original owner called me up today..just to let me know that he had caught Covid but is now recovering..My goodness !, thats two people close to me that have experienced this scourge and lived...
All in a year thats taken some very close friends and musicians so most unsettling news.

However I did manage to ask whether the tuners
( probaby gotoh aztec gold?) were original to the guitar as he recieved it from Postigo's shop as I described in a previous post.
He affirmed that they are indeed original to this guitar as he bought it and no alterations have been made to tuners or anything else for that matter.

Videos showing how to 'pop' off tuners seem to describe a fairly simple operation that's probably quite familiar to many here.Speaking for myself I'm a little hestitant at the moment to give it a go just to prove a point and possibly mess something up . So for the time being at least I will accept my esteemed teacher's word on this.

After looking around I did see other similar Condes up for sale where they described the tuners as Fusteros that looked identical to mine so who knows..No shortage of controversy with the house of Conde!




RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 13:06:35)

Ummm, OK.

What a fitting coda to a monumental waste of time...




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 17:35:50)

.



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RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 20:47:50)

Ohhh...what have we here? A guy wearing an Official Conde Orange Bandana holding up a genuine, original Magical Fustero Amulet!!

This amulet, with its Aztec-themed abstracted rendition of a circle of fifths, is coveted by snake oil salesmen and fraud artists the world over for its ability to impart credibility to any unexpurgated BS the possessor intones about a musical instrument whilst the amulet is waved over it. While the effects of the spell seldom impart much more harm than financial ruin to the unwitting victim, a far more disturbing and serious condition has come to light in recent years, referred to as “Conde Blowhard Syndrome” in the literature, named after a personality type first discovered in the wild around the turn of the previous century. There is no known cure for this condition, as all therapeutic attempts to reason with the afflicted are dismissed with a wave of the hand.

An original Conde Blowhard:




An enlightened throng demanding a refund not long after an amulet’s spell has worn off:




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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 21:30:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF
quote:

You both have to know I was kidding...

Richard, I thought you knew we knew.



I knew you knew but I didn't know whether others knew I knew you knew.

RNJ




BarkellWH -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 22:09:17)

quote:

I knew you knew but I didn't know whether others knew I knew you knew.


But if a gnu had been able to read this post would the gnu had known that you knew Rob knew or would the gnu have considered it a known unknown, or even an unknown unknown, even if the gnu thought you knew?

Bill




Piwin -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 22:21:51)

Cue the Egyptian God Nu.

Nu knew gnu knew news of Nu's new nude gnu.
You knew Nu knew gnu knew news of Nu's new nude gnu? Ew.




BarkellWH -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 22:26:27)

quote:

This amulet, with its Aztec-themed abstracted rendition....


This has been a very enlightening exchange for me, as I have always thought that an Aztec-themed Fustero, in the Aztec (Mexica) language Nahuatl, referred to the obsidian knife used by Mexica priests to cut out the beating heart of sacrificial victims. I now find that it has been appropriated by certain luthiers, or by extension to some who have bought their guitars, to refer to tuners. Meanwhile, specialists in linguistics are searching for the Aztec (Mexica) Rosetta Stone to determine how the Aztec-themed Fustero made the language leap from Nahuatl to the luthier's shop. I sense a charge of cultural appropriation will soon be made.

Bill




RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 25 2021 23:00:22)

Ahh, but not just tuners, my friend. The power of the Amulet extends far beyond that. It appears the few examples of amulets extant have primarily fallen into the hands of wealthy dealers and collectors. Very few luthiers have the means, or indeed, the requisite depravity, to possess and then wield an object of such awesome, yet dark, powers.




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 1:28:51)

Arrrggg, you’ve sunken to great Depps here ya scabs.




JasonM -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 16:06:49)

quote:

Here are my Der Jung tuners in my guitar


My DJ's are also missing screws because the ones they came with looked to be incomplete castings. I don't think they are cast, but that's hat they looked like...




Ricardo -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 16:21:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Well, I don’t know how feeling originality or quality has no bearing on value constitutes a wider view, but I also recognize there is nothing to be gained by continuing the discussion. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.


I have seen prospective buyers pass on guitars that had too high bone saddle or skinny nut etc, on $5000+ guitars and STRING BRAND. Or get excited by those things, buy it, then upon changing strings to a familiar brand are disappointed. Basically the items that are meant to be adjusted or replaced very easily or cheaply are having a heavy influence on price tag which doesn’t really make sense to those of us that see the guitar as THE important tool that it is. I have often tried to explain to students to not make the judgement of a guitar by those minor things typically (not talking about the wrong neck angle situation where the bone is 10mm and buzzing notes).

In all honesty I feel this extends to the other aspects of the guitar that get changed by wear, namely tap plates and finally, after years of use/abuse, tuners or pegs. I agree oiling them will extend the life, but the idea that the tuner type/make affects the price tag but strings don’t seems the point of disagreement here. Of course the ratio of change of strings to change set of tuners is 1000s:1, but the idea is the same. So here is a thought experiment.

Let’s say you see a nice perfectly built guitar for sale by a Luthier you don’t know with low grade tuners and your student or friend wants to buy the guitar but not happy about the bone saddle and cheap strings. As a builder/enthusiast you observe the tuners and saddle and strings can be changed or upgraded to make a goldilocks guitar for your friend. Would you not suggest it to the Luthier to please change the tuners and saddle/strings and they have a deal? And if the luthier tried to up the price on such a thing (cuz of tuners of course) would you then say “the guitar will no longer be original, so the price comes down to the original offer”?

It just seems odd that Changing a set of tuners downgrades the originality of guitar as if it is a car or something like changing oil and tires makes a new car a “used” one, even if the new tires are higher quality. I feel that is where Echi is coming from. I am all for getting educated on what tuners COST based on facts you laid out. But only because of an understood need to REPLACE them at ANYTIME….from the moment I bring the guitar home.

One last analogy. I know that the Tap plate on flamenco guitars is a big issue. Like a protective film on the thing at the store, or I have been told DONT DO GOLPES!! When trying a guitar in a shop. As if the eventual owner wants to treat her like a virgin and give her the first golpe. This is ridiculous. If anything, learning how to change a tap plate, as a player, has provided me with a piece of mind and saved me hundreds of dollars from paying a Luthier to do the NECESSARY operation. At the end of the day, nice guitars are not cars and they DON”T lose money in the used market typically.




Escribano -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 16:39:57)

On my cheap Bernal, I got the nut and saddle changed for bone and installed Schaller lyre tuners myself. Now it is a better guitar.




RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 17:49:22)

quote:

Would you not suggest it to the Luthier to please change the tuners and saddle/strings and they have a deal? And if the luthier tried to up the price on such a thing (cuz of tuners of course) would you then say “the guitar will no longer be original, so the price comes down to the original offer”?

I never suggested anything like that.

To reiterate my position; changing out a component such as the tuners on an instrument after it has left the shop means it is no longer original. Why is that concept so controversial? It is what the word means, for cripe's sake. If the original tuners were pieces of crap then upgrading the tuners to a higher quality machine is just that, an upgrade. If originality is important just save the original tuners. If you ask a maker to upgrade the tuners then it’s reasonable to expect the maker will charge you for the upgrade. If this is done at original point of sale, put it on the receipt. Depending on the guitar, an after market upgrade may or may not affect the resale value. Just save the old machines if that is a concern. In the case of Richard’s Romanillos guitar or your Mom’s Hauser, any alteration will almost certainly have a negative effect on the value.

Throughout this discussion I’ve been amazed at how what I’ve been saying has been twisted and misinterpreted to fit whatever agenda the reader possesses. It can only mean I’m not very clear in my wording, I’m not blaming anyone else. These are mountains out of molehills. If a guitar is a tool and its tuners and golpeador have been swapped out there's nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. But, it is no longer original. Period. It’s up to the market to then decide on its value. Saying condition has no bearing on resale value, well, I just don’t know how you’ve arrived at that conclusion, as each used instrument is unique and is valued as such and will only realize what the market will bear.

As far as value goes, just reread my earlier posts and it can be seen I never suggested a lack of originality always implies a decrease in value. I suggested expensive tuners were being swapped out for cheap ones and said I abhorred the practice. You and Echi have your own spin on this, but you are placing much more significance and interpretation to the word 'original' than I ever did, or than what the actual meaning of the word holds.




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 26 2021 20:22:29)

Gee whiz what a truly delightful high jacking of this thread.

Here’s a fine point about tuners today, so many precision capable outfits are making tuners today that vintage tuners can be rebuilt or copied to a high quality. There’s non need for the bone picking from either side of this argument. Can’t we all just get along and revel in the transformation of the worlds most boring condensed milk traffic cone thread into a glorious free for all of free association?


Back to your corners you animals.

I tend to agree changing tuners sometimes bothers me, I don’t really call it unoriginal, I think it’s more of an adaptation to better hardware or in some cases an adulteration. Today a worn out original tuner set can be rebuilt, gears and grip shafts can be replaced too, as can rollers. Plates I would argue are the identity of the tuner, plates create the impression of quality and style.

So let’s break it down even further, because I often retain the plate of a particular tuner and replace rollers to change color from black to white or change from straight rollers to rollers with Teflon spacers and end bearings. Or who has not replaced a tuner grip either for wear or to change all six to a new style of material. But you know what I haven’t changed? Plates. I keep the plates and build the malfunctioning tuner to a working tuner around the plate.

I agree with Ricardo, tap plates, bridge saddle, tuners, pegs all replaceable parts and guitar remains true to original.

I would add the frets and even the fingerboard is a replacement part, and I’ll go one or two further. Ribs are replaceable parts and so are bridges in an extreme case, but I’ll call a guitar unoriginal if the bridge isn’t from the maker. The top and neck is really the only I thing I consider elements you cannot replace. But for argument sake, let’s stop at the fingerboard as the last replaceable part.

What determines the final value of a guitar that’s had components changed are a series of value judgments based on who did the work, how well it was done and when it was done and why.

All these things can have been replaced and the guitar may lose value because of various mistakes, but accurately carried out there is no harm.

Tuner swapping is a game like couples swinging, you, your guitar and God are the only ones who need to know about it. Guys who who brag about tuner swapping are more annoying than those neo hippies that go to Burning Man every summer and spend all winter in the pub telling you what they did ‘on the playa’.

Nobody cares, really. Buy a round and talk about politics like a normal jerk.



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RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 1:32:44)

quote:

Nobody cares, really. Buy a round and talk about politics like a normal jerk.

I’m sorry. I can’t talk about politics. I can only rant about politics.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 1:33:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

This amulet, with its Aztec-themed abstracted rendition....


Meanwhile, specialists in linguistics are searching for the Aztec (Mexica) Rosetta Stone to determine how the Aztec-themed Fustero made the language leap from Nahuatl to the luthier's shop. I sense a charge of cultural appropriation will soon be made.

Bill


Aztec rosette.

Speaking of cultural appropriation, the Mexica clearly copied this figure from the Teotihuacanos. Also Paracho is in Purépecha country, which was never really conquered by the Mexica. And I don't know exactly what Abel's background may be...

Uh-oh. I see now that you wrote "Rosetta stone," not "rosette."

Sorry for the off-topic...

RNJ



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RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 1:50:10)

I have to figure out how you embed quotes like that. I don’t think the way I do it works that way.

Pretty rosette, BTW.




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 5:09:44)

quote:

I have to figure out how you embed quotes like that. I don’t think the way I do it works that way.

Pretty rosette, BTW.



You highlight the quote you want, then hit post reply.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 5:10:07)

Like this, only with square brackets [ ]. I just hit "reply" on Bill's post, and the "quote original" button in my reply. Then I cut some out of the part from Bill:

{quote}ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

{quote}This amulet, with its Aztec-themed abstracted rendition.... {/quote}

Meanwhile, specialists in linguistics are searching for the Aztec (Mexica) Rosetta Stone to determine how the Aztec-themed Fustero made the language leap from Nahuatl to the luthier's shop. I sense a charge of cultural appropriation will soon be made.

Bill
{/quote}

Had to use curly brackts here to keep them from being interpreted as HTML.

RNJ




estebanana -> [Deleted] (Jul. 27 2021 5:13:41)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 27 2021 5:18:08




estebanana -> [Deleted] (Jul. 27 2021 5:16:51)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 27 2021 5:18:21




estebanana -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 5:19:34)

I was just experimenting with brackets-


Abel’s rosette tile is steal worthy.




RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 27 2021 5:53:16)

OK. Thanks. I guess I have done the nesting that way before, I just normally manually type in the quote brackets. Never used the “quote original” button, so seeing that format threw me off. I’ll give it a try...




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