RobF -> RE: Is this an authentic Conde? (Jul. 21 2021 21:35:00)
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quote:
Jeez, you are really mad at those tuners man! I am now, lol. quote:
Ok, so how are you guys telling the difference from photographs that tuners are cheap knock off vs $400 originals? Actually, I just spent over an hour taking pictures of various tuners, from a cheap Chinese set I bought on Amazon for $15, through the entire Gotoh line from the 35G620 to the 35G1800 and 35G3600 and on to the 510 series, which is probably what you’ve been using. Then, I took pictures of Sloanes, Rubners, Der Jung, Fusteros, and even Rodgers. But I’m so darned insulted by the suggestion that I can’t tell the difference in qualities that I don’t feel very generous about posting a pile of pictures, when all this information can also be found online. In lieu of pictures, which are a pain to process for a post, maybe some hints can suffice? To start, for the highest end stuff, one really has to be able to distinguish between real gold plating and gold coloured metallic plate. Also, the material used for the buttons can give clues. Maybe instead of spending the time on a pictorial or listing hints, let’s just look at the tuners on the OP’s guitar. I would say that in quality they probably sit somewhere between that of the Gotoh 35G620s and the 35G3600s. That points to the 35G1800 series. I would prefer the 35G1800s to them, except they don’t look very Spanish aesthetically speaking, although that’s what I think was put on Paco’s guitar. They are serviceable tuners, but not great. There can be slop in the gearing and also problems with how well the buttons seat in the shafts. I still have a few sets of the 1800s left that I will find use for, but I probably won’t buy any more. Looking at the OP’s first photo of the tuners you can see the plates are covered with a cheap baubly overly shiny gold coloured metallic plating. The plates themselves are stamped and the edges haven’t been cleaned up. The screws are not counter-sunk and sit on top of the plates. The tabs that hold the tuner shafts are bent metal which is then pushed through the plates, which are likely of base metal and not brass. Base metal degrades, and when it does those tabs will let go. Looking at the side picture, which I had yet to see before declaring the tuners as being cheap, one can see the design on the plates has either been stamped into them, although if they are base metal it is more than likely they are just cast (poured). I’m not a machinist so I shouldn’t stick my neck out too far about processes. Better tuners are engraved, either by machine or hand, and the base material of the plates will at least be of brass (although you won’t necessarily be able to tell that from a picture). A cast base metal plate can often have a “lumpy” or undefined appearance to the “engravings”. The fancy-pants hand engraved Fusteros pictured in that Orfeo article are little works of art, right up there with what can be found on Rodgers machines. I can’t speak to the gearing, the buttons look nicely proportioned and are plastic. Depending on the quality of the material they may or may not last before getting sloppy, don’t know. Good tuners use better materials, super high end ones can use genuine pearl and the like for their buttons. It’s not always easy to determine the quality of a button material from pictures, but looking for clues like flashing on the edges and the like can help. Other clues can be found in the execution of the worm and barrel gears, but I hadn’t looked at that on the OP guitar. That’s just my seat of the pants evaluation, the bulk of which I arrived at probably within about ten seconds after first seeing the picture. It is more informed by experience than anything, by seeing how cheap tuners look and perform on inexpensive guitars up to having possessed and examined some of the finest examples available. Maybe because of my watch collecting days I’ve developed a bit of an eye for this stuff, but honestly, I can tell the difference. A super affordable tuner that I really like is the Der Jung 306GX-AS. The main shortcoming these have is really soft plates, so there is some concern about durability. But they have roller bearings, capped buttons, and are super attractive. If I saw those without knowing I would think they cost at least four times as much as they do. They perform really well, too, well beyond their price point. Same applies with the Rubners. They are utilitarian and a little bulky looking, but I prefer their look over Gotohs in the same price range and they are very well made for the price. Their Superior series also has roller bearings. So, there are lots of good tuners in the couple to few hundred dollar range; Gotoh, Rubner, DerJung, Sloane (a little more pricey), Schaller, all of these companies make nice tuners in that price range. They are also genuinely nice, not pretend nice. The one’s on the OP guitar might be OK, but they look overdone and flashy. Aesthetically, tuners by any of the companies I just mentioned would be a better bet, IMO. In closing, I’m not a machinist, and I also don’t consider myself to be any kind of tuner expert. But I do have an eye that I trust. I really don’t have any interest in engaging in pissing contests over this. If someone wants to add to the information then I think that’s great. If someone wants to engage in some form of internet bullying take-down because they think they’ve caught me out on a mistake and want to rub my nose in it, or for whatever other reason, please don’t waste my time, or the Foro’s. We deserve more respect than that. At any rate, I hope this post was of some help...
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