For a while I thought I would buy an Atocha Conde blanca because I really do love this sound. Now I'm not so sure because I don't feel like researching into all this drama.
Right. For some years I was convinced that my own Felipe V guitars (which look almost exactly like these) were made by the same people:Hermanos Sanchis lopez. So I ended up buying a good one, which happened to be maple. My student got a 1F which I believed to be the equivalent of the A26, and was certainly the same as the Atocha guitars (because we saw the stamp of Ricardo Sanchis on the soundboard of an Atocha Conde). In the end I went into examining the details at a fine level. It was strange to me but despite the overt similarity, they were in fact different. So until 2014 I was back to scratching my head about the whole issue. The main reason of the overt similarity is that Sanchis has been making extremely good copies of the old Faustino guitars of the 70’s. In the end my own 1973 has too much in common with the 1F extra cypress guitars of HSL, so it is that tradition of copying the style…bracing, set up, neck angle, responsiveness, dryness, even finishing with that orange color, and rosettes.
If you like the Atocha it is worth to look for a used one and the same price range as Hermanos Sanchis Lopez 1F. What I remembered was the price difference was not that much, perhaps worth it if you were after the Conde aesthetics (media Luna, rosette, etc.). The Felipe V guitars always had a price gap which was the main issue in this drama. Gerardo Nuñez had both Felipe V and Atocha instruments. The Felipe V was used to record Calima and Andando del Tiempo. He started using the Atocha conde for concerts around 2004 or so, and you see it pictured on the album Andando del Tiempo, but it is a 1999 build. It really opened up, but having played both I preferred the Felipe V. He had stuck a golpeador on top of the old worn out one, and maybe that is why he retired it. Unfortunately it was during the era of using that Atocha conde that he developed the finger injury (2008), but I have to say the best concerts i saw him give, around 2006-7, where with that Sanchis built Conde. Chicuelo also used the same type of Atocha conde for decades. They are, as I said, Sanchis guitars, but lower cost than the Felipe V condes, so certainly worth the price. Many other pros have turned up with the Atocha condes/Sanchis, such as Viejin, etc. So don’t be worried about it. If you want the piece of mind, try the Sanchis first.
Here the story of this video in Sanlucar Merced Auditorium, the wanted to film and Gerardo did not have his guitar. He asked his amigo (mutual friend who told me this story)…of all his fancy guitars, Gerardo picked THIS sanchis 1F, because of the similarity to his Atocha Conde. This was the Cheapest guitar in his collection [:D]
Echi -> RE: Mariano Conde (Mar. 11 2024 12:55:05)
Some old Ricardo Sanchis Carpio, the good ones, are a thing. There was a time I borrowed a guitar made by Arcangel. It was not mine but I could keep it while making up money to buy it. Well, in those days I also used to own 2 guitars, a Manzanero and a '98 Sanchis Carpio 1f extra negra. The Arcangel was an excellent guitar but the other 2 didn't play too different really. Maybe it was not a chance the bracing of the 3 guitars was of the same kind (5 struts + 2 closing bars). The general tone of that Sanchis Carpio was quite deep, as the Arcangel, but more powerful and defined... less forceful but with more sustain and yet piecing .... in the same league. In few words, I kept the Sanchis and gave up the idea to buy the Arcangel. That Sanchis (which I repent to have sold) was an extraordinary sounding guitar.... it was not nicely build, the rosette was so and so, but what a tone.
Different matter the collaboration between Sanchis and the 3 Conde shops ... I spoke with people directly involved (the reason I don't want to say the names is because there are no disclosure bylaws) and he told me that 2 shops used to buy guitars made ordinarily by his company while one shop commissioned a small number of guitars with a higher quality standard made by Ricardo... to you the conclusions.
the reason I don't want to say the names is because there are no disclosure bylaws
Mariano and followers are shouting ESTEVE/ADALID. Reply “stop” if this is valid. [:D][:D][:D]
Echi -> RE: Mariano Conde (Mar. 11 2024 15:32:20)
Ricardo Sanchis Carpio himself doesn’t build anymore. He stopped before Mariano and Felipe split, so I referred to the contracts his company had with the old 3 Conde Hermanos shops.
What I can tell about Felipe Conde Sr. is that He has a full time employee who is actually a very good luthier and that few other proper luthiers work for him at a piece for the top line. The contract with these luthiers have a no disclosure bylaw. The other less expensive guitars are outsourced to proper companies. Currently the 4 best companies for these kind of jobs are Picado in Barcelona, the Sanchis and Esteve/Adalid in Valencia and Jellingaus in Germany.
Are 2nd epoch Jimenez, Barba, or Francisco Sanchez overrated by any means guitars? They seem very good to excellent to me.
This is totally subjective as we all have different preferences and tastes in action, sound, setup, hardness (pulsation) etc
I have tried two of Jesus Jimenez guitars from "Segunda Epoca" (a blanca from 2022 and a negra from 2023).
Both were exceptional - perfect low string setup, effortless to play and they had that "growl" from the bass strings (difficult to describe in words), also they both had this "effecto rebote", the way the guitar reacts to how you play. Its almost a "bouncy or rebound" feeling on the fingers. Again difficult to explain but it makes playing enjoyable.
The only two other guitar I experienced this "effecto rebote" on were a Reyes blanca and a Devoe blanca.
Jesus Jimenez is a very good flamenco guitarist too and so he understands what flamenco guitarists are looking for, especially in how perfectly these two guitars were setup.
elias -> RE: Mariano Conde (Mar. 13 2024 1:25:40)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sol512
quote:
Are 2nd epoch Jimenez, Barba, or Francisco Sanchez overrated by any means guitars? They seem very good to excellent to me.
This is totally subjective as we all have different preferences and tastes in action, sound, setup, hardness (pulsation) etc
I have tried two of Jesus Jimenez guitars from "Segunda Epoca" (a blanca from 2022 and a negra from 2023).
Both were exceptional - perfect low string setup, effortless to play and they had that "growl" from the bass strings (difficult to describe in words), also they both had this "effecto rebote", the way the guitar reacts to how you play. Its almost a "bouncy or rebound" feeling on the fingers. Again difficult to explain but it makes playing enjoyable.
The only two other guitar I experienced this "effecto rebote" on were a Reyes blanca and a Devoe blanca.
Jesus Jimenez is a very good flamenco guitarist too and so he understands what flamenco guitarists are looking for, especially in how perfectly these two guitars were setup.
I completely believe you. What I was trying to say is that I feel the guitars they do promote are very good, even if some claim they downplay the guitars of other makers, I still give Solera the benefit of the doubt. If Solera is the reason why I'll never be able to afford a Barba...now we have a problem ; )
Echi -> RE: Mariano Conde (Mar. 13 2024 11:23:59)
quote:
Are 2nd epoch Jimenez, Barba, or Francisco Sanchez overrated by any means guitars? They seem very good to excellent to me.
They definitely are as many other not in their radar, like José Rodriguez, Andres Dominguez. The guitars made by Barba nowadays are very good and yet those made by Francisco in the eighties are a thing.
Jesus De Jimenez works for an optimal "pulsation", which is quite a common feature of old Conde guitars. The guitars of Javier Castano also have the same thing. Old Conde have both the right rebote and are quite fast, which is quite unique... In my experience the guitars of Reyes are quote different but it depends also on the epoch
elias -> RE: Mariano Conde (Apr. 2 2024 0:45:09)
Estudio guitars of another guitar maker but made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio himself...a good buy?
Estudio guitars of another guitar maker but made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio himself...a good buy?
I think Carpio no longer builds guitars. Sometime in mid 2000’s he produced numbered top models at $4000, in other words, competitive with Conde Ramirez etc. The Estudio ANYTHING will be a factory made build from Valencia shop. The Hermanos Sanchis Lopez I own is called “1F” and is in league with the Atocha top condes.
elias -> RE: Mariano Conde (Apr. 9 2024 0:10:51)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: elias
Estudio guitars of another guitar maker but made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio himself...a good buy?
I think Carpio no longer builds guitars. Sometime in mid 2000’s he produced numbered top models at $4000, in other words, competitive with Conde Ramirez etc. The Estudio ANYTHING will be a factory made build from Valencia shop. The Hermanos Sanchis Lopez I own is called “1F” and is in league with the Atocha top condes.
Let's say an estudio Barba stamped by Carpio himself?
Estudio guitars of another guitar maker but made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio himself...a good buy?
I think Carpio no longer builds guitars. Sometime in mid 2000’s he produced numbered top models at $4000, in other words, competitive with Conde Ramirez etc. The Estudio ANYTHING will be a factory made build from Valencia shop. The Hermanos Sanchis Lopez I own is called “1F” and is in league with the Atocha top condes.
Let's say an estudio Barba stamped by Carpio himself?
A stamp???? I don’t understand what you are after? Nobody on earth can prove what hand “stamped” anything. Carpio guitars from the FACTORY, are a great buy, very competitive in the under $3000 market. As I said, Hermanos Sanchis Lopez are what you want to compare to as Carpio no longer builds anything, at least less than $4000.
Manitas de Lata -> RE: Mariano Conde (Apr. 9 2024 21:17:46)
elias -> RE: Mariano Conde (Apr. 9 2024 22:20:16)
[/quote]
A stamp???? I don’t understand what you are after? Nobody on earth can prove what hand “stamped” anything. Carpio guitars from the FACTORY, are a great buy, very competitive in the under $3000 market. As I said, Hermanos Sanchis Lopez are what you want to compare to as Carpio no longer builds anything, at least less than $4000. [/quote]
Valencia. Barba did not make student guitars. Neither did Reyes and I have seen one, very poor. Buy from Valencia the best place in Spain to buy a good guitar reasonably priced. You can have a media luna if you wish.
