Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Full Version)

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formos -> Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 15:23:11)

I know most here are hardcore fans of traditional flamenco (I do too), but I was just wondering if anyone here also appreciate some of the more Modern, Pop'ish, New Age style of Spanish Flamenco guitar? They're generally more fusion like and sound quite like the "smooth jazz" version of flamenco or Spanish guitar.

Jesse Cook, Ottmar Liebert, Armik, Gypsy Kings comes to mind.

Does anyone have any guitarists that they like that fall into this category? If so, what are some songs that you like ? :)




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 16:01:51)

BarkellWH, estebanana and Morante all love this guy:



I think it's the hair. Not sure.

More seriously, if you use the search bar and look up "fakemenco" (this label of "nuevo flamenco" from Liebert really hasn't caught on in flamenco circles…) you'll probably find the type of thing you're looking for. Personally I wouldn't put the Gipsy Kings in the same category as those other guys. So for stuff like Liebert or Armik, look up fakemenco in the search bar but for stuff like the Gipsy Kings look up rumba catalana.




JasonM -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 16:22:42)

What are you saying? Rumba not good enough for you?




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 17:25:17)

Sorry that came out wrong. I'm just saying that rumba is not the same thing as this "nuevo flamenco" stuff. If it's just about my personal tastes, I'd pick a rumbero any day over the Armiks and Lieberts out there. I'm still not exactly sure what "nuevo flamenco" is supposed to be, but if I look at the names up there, I think it's fair to say that it's stage music, lounge music really. Rumba is like flamenco, in the sense that it's music that brings families and communities together. I doubt there's many areas where neighbors get together to play Armik all night...




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:12:29)

Yes, I do like this music. It's light and catchy. These artists clearly have a very good understanding of general public's musical tastes, and they certainly know how to appeal to them. It takes hard work to be successful at anything, and these artists are hard workers. Aside from practicing, composing, arranging, rehearsing, etc., it takes a lot of time and effort to self-promote and stay on top of things. So, more power to them.




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:16:28)

That's not nuevo flamenco, nuevo flamenco guitarists would be people like Diego Del Morao, Dani de Moron, Antonio Rey etc......

What that is, is bullsh&^ watered down appropriation of a rich cultural heritage that is centuries old. Anyone that plays that mier*& and allows their marketers to throw the word flamenco around deserves a swift kick in the ass and I'd line up to be the one to do it.

Gypsy kings are rumba catalan and different beast entirely so I don't tend to lump them in with those other...... people.

I even give Rodrigo Y Gabriela a bit of a pass too because I've seen them correct interviewers and say they're not flamenco.

Don't listen to either of them though.

Just my two cents [;)]




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:31:06)

Well, these artists make a ton of money. They've figured out the market and are exploiting it fairly. People are all too happy to pay for their records and buy tickets to the shows. What's the problem here? General public will never get Agujetas. I was told Riqueni played at a large auditorium in LA a couple of decades ago and maybe 30 people showed up. That's reality.




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:34:35)

quote:

it takes a lot of time and effort to self-promote and stay on top of things


True. And a lot of flamenco artists could learn from that. I mean, between the announcements of upcoming CDs or books or whatever that never come, and when they finally do come, oftentimes years later, they hardly even announce it, they're not doing themselves any favours by not giving any attention to the "business" side of things. As a customer you really have to go out of your way to find some of these stuff. My favorite is their approach to the internet. Lots of them have set up website, only to then leave them die off because they never put anything on there, or they set up a site and half of the pages read "under construction" for years and years…

You're probably right that flamenco will never appeal to the general public. But my guess is that they could reach a larger crowd than today if they just learned to market themselves better.




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:38:23)

Piwin, that sounds a lot like me. My website has been down for a couple of months now. I wonder how many concert offers I've missed.




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 19:58:51)

quote:

People are all too happy to pay for their records and buy tickets to the shows. What's the problem here?

That's all fine, just don't use the word flamenco. It's false advertising and deceitful.

In fact, maybe we create a class action against Ottmar for his album that has flamenco in the title. I think we've got a solid case. [:D]




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:14:18)

My first record was called "Alma Flamenca". Yet, it features music of Albeniz, Paco and Sabicas played in a classical way on a classical guitar. Wanna sue me? [:D]




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:22:23)

I know, I own it [:D] I think you're Sabicas stuff is pretty dead on....All you're flamenco covers for that matter.
You're a very far cry from Ottmar señor Grisha [:D]
Listen to this "bulerias" mess.




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:22:31)

Yeah it's not easy. Which is why, even if the music of guys like Armik and Cooke doesn't appeal to me personally, I recognize the effort they must put into it to keep going at that level.

The last stuff I saw from you was some videos that came out about three or four months ago. It was a guitar festival and you were playing with Jérome Mouffe. You guys were killing it! I especially liked the guajiras.

But to compete with Cooke I think you're going to have to something "extra-musical". Let your hair grow down to your waist, maybe get a tattoo on your face and throw on some big shiny necklaces. Showbiz. [8D] Oh I know, you should do a music video with those Russian girls that do "twerking choreographies" all over YouTube. Get them to twerk on a zambra and you'll have a Grammy award in no time! [:)] Nothing like twenty models in short shorts to get people interested in music…

Play these two simultaneously. Sabicas with sound on while you watch the other muted. I'm telling you, this is a goldmine.




And if you can't afford all those models, I hear Leñador got some chops when it comes to twerking.




tim522 -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:45:36)

Is Dani de Moron considered nuevo flamenco? if so, then yes i guess i like nuevo flamenco.




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:51:43)

You guys are killing me! [:D]

Here is a program for one of my concerts later this month:

“Brisas” (Guajira) – Rafael Riqueni
“Ventanas al Alma” (Minera) – Vicente Amigo
“Se alza la luna” (Zapateado) – Juan Manuel Cañizares
“Monasterio de Sal” (Colombiana) – Paco de Lucía
“Remache” (Seguiriya) – Gerardo Nuñez
“La Cañada” (Tangos) – Paco de Lucía
“Piñonate” (Bulerías) – Paco de Lucía


“Tio Arango” (Soleá) – Vicente Amigo
“De la Vera” (Garrotín) – Rafael Riqueni
“Piedras Negras” (Taranta/Soleá Por Bulería) – Gerardo Nuñez
“La Cartuja” (Granaína) – Gerardo Núñez
“La Barrosa” (Alegrías) – Paco de Lucía
“Montiño” (Fandango) – Paco de Lucía
“Río de la miel” (Bulerías) – Paco de Lucía

Good stuff, right? Advanced, beautiful stuff.

Well, I am actually a bit nervous, even though this is for a guitar festival. I am afraid people would not get it and may leave feeling exhausted. At least I okayed it with the director.




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:53:25)

I wasn't meaning to refer to "nuevo flamenco" as if it was it's own genre. Just using the literal translation, "new flamenco". Dani is in the newer generation of players. I don't really see "nuevo flamenco" as a genre that actually exists.....if that makes any sense. [:D]

quote:

Here is a program for one of my concerts later this month:

Holy cow! Quite a set! You're a monster!
If the audience is normally classical fans I think they'll be floored.
If they're Kanye West fans it's probably a bit "heady" for them. [:D]




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 20:54:02)

To the original poster:

Sorry the thread got hijacked. Not really guitar, but I like this group "Chambao". It's a nice Spanish pop group with some flamenco elements.




BarkellWH -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 21:03:52)

quote:

That's all fine, just don't use the word flamenco. It's false advertising and deceitful.


Several years ago the Gipsy Kings performed at Wolf Trap, near Washington, DC. The playbill advertising their concert stated: "They will play fiery flamenco songs like Bamboleo."

Now I happen to like the Gipsy Kings. But talk about false advertising!

Bill




BarkellWH -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 21:09:25)

quote:

If their (sic) Kanye West fans it's probably a bit "heady" for them.


If they're Kanye West fans they don't deserve an artist of Grisha's caliber playing before them.

Bill




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 21:34:52)

I'm telling you man. Replace Piñonate by a zambra with a few twerking girls and all your worries will disappear.

I'd pay good money to go see the concert you have prepared. My guess is that people who would walk away from that not getting it are people who just don't like solo guitar. I don't think playing simpler pieces would change anything for them. To appeal to them, you'd have to play with some sort of band, with percussions and whatnot. But for people who like solo guitar, that's a very nice program.




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:01:24)

(sic) fixed. [:D]

Twerking Russian girls eh?? Yeah, why not? Why is twerking women exclusive to bad music? Why can't elevated music have them too?? [:D]




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:08:10)

Thanks Piwin! Now, the question is: how did you find that video so quickly? [:D]




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:09:04)

I didn't watch the whole twerking video, but it puts me in mind of an incident at the Cuernavaca International Guitar Festival in 2000. The big rectangular town square with the view of Cortez's brutalist baroque palace is bordered at one corner by a smaller square. The bigger concerts were held at a theater on the smaller square. As I came out of a concert, I noticed some pretty girls dancing capoeira, the Brazilian martial art disguised as dance. Some young men were accompanying them on drums and berimbau.

I stood watching for a few minutes. A Mexican man standing beside me said, "Those Brazilian girls can really dance, can't they?"

I replied, "Yes, but those aren't Brazilian girls."

"How do you know?"

"If you had ever seen Brazilian girls dance, you would know."

Young Brazilian girls dancing display a flexibility of the spine unparalleled in my experience.

Some American girls twerking make the Russian girls shown here qualify merely as wiggling their hips a little. They are pretty and energetic, but twerking....?

If Grisha is going to add twerking girls to his act, he can probably find some highly skilled ones in Oakland, or on the East Coast.

But I would advise against it. A girlfriend I once had was the daughter of a retired Coast Guardsman. He managed two topless bars in Key West. One afternoon we were out on his 45-foot sailboat, with a contingent of girls from the bars, all strutting their stuff. I said to the the Coast Guardsman, "You're living the life many men would dream of."

He replied, "Nothing will sour you on women any faster or any worse than running a topless bar. I run two of them."

I fear that a twerking troupe might present some similar difficulties.

But I guess you never know until you give it a try. Let us know how it works out, will you Grisha?

RNJ




Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:12:30)

quote:

how did you find that video so quickly?


easy. I typed "Russian twerking" on YouTube. The real question is why did I know that video was out there in the first place?! [8D]


@Richard Jernigan Now I just had to look up "Brazilian twerking". My search history is going to get me in trouble if this keeps up!




Grisha -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:17:34)

How do you like this one?

https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11002662_10152569310001277_6339279697071503111_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeGWr89mj9jGBLFRCTvS7kiVTlkhdH2W41yLyT4sRrSzYZ33wOql4ZFgr0cIQf_O55dt_bqysaX6EtYnZc__-mVBI109a1nZb-6vMxcEP09bow&oh=0d88a1572648928a5b027430f1a7df35&oe=5BB67AEA




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 22:25:51)

quote:

"Nothing will sour you on women any faster or any worse than running a topless bar. I run two of them."

I managed a restaurant on the Sunset strip in my 20's, all very pretty aspiring actresses. It would have been easier herding cats. Although, I can't say it was all bad *elbow elbow wink wink*. [:D][:D]

quote:

And if you can't afford all those models, I hear Leñador got some chops when it comes to twerking.

Missed this, and yes, there are some advantages to growing up in the hood. [:D]




Mark2 -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 23:00:44)

There is music and there is the music business. I've been around a while and witnessed the breakout of Ottmar and the GK's up close. Tons of people LOVE that stuff, and a few musicians got lucky and made money. Before them Carlos Montoya and Manitas did their thing, and even Sabicas made a record with a jazz/rock player.

There are real flamencos who step outside flamenco for commercial or other reasons and there are those who couldn't tell bulerias from tangos. All just arranging sounds in a way they hope people will like, and hopefully, pay to hear.

Flamenco is a strange bird. For those of us who have spent the time to understand it to some degree, we are able to distinguish flamencos from those musicians who are simply "influenced" by it. The rest of the public, in general, are not.

Once I told a cousin that Ottmar couldn't really play flamenco and saw his face fall. It made me feel like a jerk. Nothing was gained-he didn't go out and buy Moraito records.

I made a record years ago and deliberately didn't put one note of flamenco on it-I was hoping it might, uh, sell. Such is life.

When I was a kid my dad's cousins had a record label and tried to get me to do a record with cheesy music and market it as some kind of romantic BS. I declined-might have been a mistake-who knows. This I do know-selling music is a business. A rather difficult one if you happen to be a musician.




Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 6 2018 23:30:10)

quote:

Once I told a cousin that Ottmar couldn't really play flamenco and saw his face fall. It made me feel like a jerk. Nothing was gained-he didn't go out and buy Moraito records.


I know the feeling, I purposely avoid telling people I'm into flamenco among polite company because I'll look like an elitist ass when they want to talk to me about how great the Benise thing on PBS was.......

quote:

This I do know-selling music is a business. A rather difficult one if you happen to be a musician.

Eso.
And very rarely a correlation between musical talent and success.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 1:33:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
This I do know-selling music is a business. A rather difficult one if you happen to be a musician.


After traveling to Bali a few times I got to be friends with my regular taxi driver. He was a young man (not so young any more) from Bangli, one of the seven princely capitals before the Dutch finally took over in the 1920s. I showed up with a guitar one time. Nyoman asked me to play for him. "You are a musician!" he exclaimed. "You must come with me to gamelan practice day after tomorrow."

There are hardly any professional musicians in Bali, but there is a tremendous amount of very high quality music. Every town of any size has its orchestra, or maybe more than one. A princely town like Bangli has a very important gamelan, with a centuries-long tradition. You don't get paid to be in the city's orchestra. You pay dues to be a member. And you don't get to be a member without being an excellent musician.

At the rehearsal the guru (the only paid person) was teaching the piece he had composed for the annual contest at Denpasar. The piece was about fifteen minutes long, and comparable in complexity to an early Mozart symphony. The guru sat with a small marimba-like instrument. He pointed to the players of one of the many different kinds of instruments. "You play this," he demonstrated. The players responded by playing the passage. Pointing to another group, he repeated the exercise with their different part. Every musician played his part note perfect, having heard it only once. When all the different parts had been taught, they all played together. The guru made a few adjustments of dynamics and accentuation, but there were no wrong notes. This went on for half an hour, then there was a break for a smoke and a cup of coffee. Another half hour rounded out the teaching part. Then they played everything that had been taught up to that point, about seven minutes worth.

When the band went to Denpasar for the annual contest, a big group of fans from Bangli traveled along to support them. They cheered long and loud after their group played. They placed second in the island wide competition. The city turned out to receive them as conquering heroes when they returned home.

Sometime later my friend Nyoman asked me about music in the USA. I talked about classical music and jazz, comparing it in some degree to what he and his friends did. Then I tried to explain a little about the commercial music business.

Nyoman had a hard time figuring out what I was talking about. Finally he said, "But Richard, you are saying they are trying to sell you a song like it was a shirt or a piece of chewing gum."

"Yes."

Nyoman was quiet for a fairly long time. Finally he decided he knew me well enough to say what he thought.

"That is sad.....that is wrong. People are starting to sell songs here too, on the radio. They want to make the young people think a song is a fashion. They want the kids with money to buy a song like they have to buy Levis to be like the others, to be cool. But I think it is wrong. Music is not something to sell. Music is for the people, for the gods. It's an honor to be able to make music. You farm rice, you drive a taxi, you work in a hotel, then if you can make music, you take time to do it. You don't ask for money."

I once asked, "Nyoman, how did you learn to make music?"

"My father taught me. Some people it is their uncle, their cousin, their grandfather. When I began to be able to do it, he took me to the guru, and paid him to teach me. My father, my grandfather, we have been in the gamelan of Bangli for 12 generations, 10 of them for the Raja."

"Did the Raja pay your ancestors?"

"He made sure they had enough rice, but he didn't support them. They farmed rice. It was an honor to be able to make music."

A Balinese taxi driver's opinion--a member of one of the most musical and artistic cultures on the planet.

RNJ




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 1:55:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

"Nothing will sour you on women any faster or any worse than running a topless bar. I run two of them."

I managed a restaurant on the Sunset strip in my 20's, all very pretty aspiring actresses. It would have been easier herding cats. Although, I can't say it was all bad *elbow elbow wink wink*. [:D][:D]



Last time I saw the Coast Guardsman, probably 30 years ago, he was wearing one of those radio ankle bracelets that lets your probation officer track where you are.

His trouble was getting it on with an underage girl. He showed me her picture. She didn't look underage to me either, and he said she had a fake ID. The fake ID was good enough that he hired her to work in one of his bars.

He said he would have been in jail, but his defense attorney suggested getting some of the people whose life he had saved to testify as character witnesses. I think there were quite a few of them. The judge let him off with probation.

RNJ




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