RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Full Version)

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Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 3:14:51)

quote:

His trouble was getting it on with an underage girl. He showed me her picture. She didn't look underage to me either, and he said she had a fake ID. The fake ID was good enough that he hired her to work in one of his bars

Ouch, good thing I’ve consistantly dated 30 year olds since I was 18. [:D]



estebanana -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 3:20:22)

Atta boy Lenny, I agree. Lol.

I like acts that are peripheral to flamenco like Peret and Moreno e Azucar, there's enough sexiness there.

Nuevo flamenco? There's no such thing. It's a form of greasy pop music. Where's Morante? He's not here because he has no fuccks to give about pop music with flamenco flavor.

Flamenco is not a marketable art really, you can advertise it, but really flamenco is cante and nothing else. People try to pretend it's something else, but it's not. If it turns into something else and stll gets called Flamenco then the people calling it that are simply deluded.

Like we call alligators as rabbits? Right? If you signed up for a life of flamenco or worse, expected to make a living at it, you're just crazy. Maybe a little less crazy or more crazy, but you could have read law or medicine, or become a nurse or trash collector. But you didn't. And that gives you the right to be snobby and force a real definition on flamenco.

Weirdly however I think the more fakemenco the better. Fakemenco is a gateway drug to theater based flamenco, and the people who work in cuadros are a higher level of music that is very disciplined and should rightly be called cuadro flamenco, it's really flamenco, but it's not a small gathering of serious aficionados. It's usually pretty good stuff, and the faux flamenco that exists helps cuadro settings get exposure. Like how guitarists learn about flamenco by hearing Paco or Manitas records.

I know a guy who is the editor of a national magazine that features articles about politics, culture and sports and is read by half the people in the US. One weekend he invited me to a yearly party he had at his cabin complex in the MTS. Near Yosemite. He has these 1960s vintage Klipsch speakers and a HiFi set- plus a vast record collection. My friend knows I'm into flamenco and that weekend he dug out a box of Manitas de Plata records for me to check out and presented me with the box as if he was handing me his favorite puppy.

I took to looking through the box and said "Oh man, thisvis wonderful. Thank you I'll be digging in here to check it out." I directed my enthusiasm in such a way that I channeled my feelings of being cared for by a friend who wanted me to share I his vinyl treasure trove, and not a privileged snarky flamenco head.

See, why be a dick? Fakemenco and less hardcore flamenco work for most people. But it's still fair and correct to call flamenco cante only.

Being honest about what flamenco is and being ok with fakemenco are not mutually exclusive thoughts. I side with Morante of this, but I also don't have a problem with people who want to play gypsy Kings songs. I just may stay away from that party. I say this to say no such thing as new flamenco, just exists flamenco and the flamenco derived musics. It's point of nuance I think is important...

Am I being dick? Seriously tell me if I'm being a dick, I've had way too much Ambien the last week to tell.

JK....
Only Roseanne acts like a dick on Ambien. I can be a dick without drugs.



jmg12 -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 8:33:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

You guys are killing me! [:D]

Here is a program for one of my concerts later this month:

“Brisas” (Guajira) – Rafael Riqueni
“Ventanas al Alma” (Minera) – Vicente Amigo
“Se alza la luna” (Zapateado) – Juan Manuel Cañizares
“Monasterio de Sal” (Colombiana) – Paco de Lucía
“Remache” (Seguiriya) – Gerardo Nuñez
“La Cañada” (Tangos) – Paco de Lucía
“Piñonate” (Bulerías) – Paco de Lucía


“Tio Arango” (Soleá) – Vicente Amigo
“De la Vera” (Garrotín) – Rafael Riqueni
“Piedras Negras” (Taranta/Soleá Por Bulería) – Gerardo Nuñez
“La Cartuja” (Granaína) – Gerardo Núñez
“La Barrosa” (Alegrías) – Paco de Lucía
“Montiño” (Fandango) – Paco de Lucía
“Río de la miel” (Bulerías) – Paco de Lucía

Good stuff, right? Advanced, beautiful stuff.

Well, I am actually a bit nervous, even though this is for a guitar festival. I am afraid people would not get it and may leave feeling exhausted. At least I okayed it with the director.


Hi Grisha , will you play this program in South of France in july 6 ?

unfortunately, it will be impossible for me to take masterclass with you or Samuelito, i have been told that it was for people less than 32 years .....



Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 13:55:02)

quote:

unfortunately, it will be impossible for me to take masterclass with you or Samuelito, i have been told that it was for people less than 32 years .....

WTF?? Seriously??



BarkellWH -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 14:47:53)

quote:

Nuevo flamenco? There's no such thing.


Agreed. That a definition of the term cannot even be agreed upon by those who use it should relegate it to the trash can. Which is where most of the trash masquerading under the term belongs. "Pop-ish" flamenco, four saxaphones with flamenco "influence," and the other disasters ("Let's introduce the French horn as a flamenco instument." "Oh, how cool will that be!") are degrading what was once a beautiful genre and art form.

("Let's feed Kanye West some 'nuevo' cante to work on. The old cante is so hard to understand and boring, and it's in a foreign language," shrieked the young girl who loves fusion. That she can identify something as "fusion" makes her feel "up to date.")

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 14:55:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: formos

I know most here are hardcore fans of traditional flamenco (I do too), but I was just wondering if anyone here also appreciate some of the more Modern, Pop'ish, New Age style of Spanish Flamenco guitar? They're generally more fusion like and sound quite like the "smooth jazz" version of flamenco or Spanish guitar.

Jesse Cook, Ottmar Liebert, Armik, Gypsy Kings comes to mind.

Does anyone have any guitarists that they like that fall into this category? If so, what are some songs that you like ? :)


The three guitar trio albums are what inspired this genre imo and you can’t get better than that: Friday night in San Francisco, passion grace and fire, the Guitar Trio. After that and the three guys own work of course, the only ones that impressed me were Strunz and Farah , of which only two albums really stand out, Primal magic and Americas



Mark2 -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 16:17:31)

Great story Richard! I think anyone who has played music for a long time, be they a pro or not, has played a lot of music without regard to business matters. I hope to go to Bali one day. My daughters have told me how incredible it is.



jg7238 -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 7 2018 16:50:07)

quote:

.


“”Roe por la escalera” is a nice song from Chambao. They are a good group.



Dudnote -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 10:54:38)

Here's some details on Grisha's French gig.

https://www.lesmusicalesdelahontan.org/ev%C3%A9nements/



Dudnote -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 12:25:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmg12
unfortunately, it will be impossible for me to take masterclass with you or Samuelito, i have been told that it was for people less than 32 years .....

It sounds like an administrative detail and very French. As a survival strategy in France I have a mantra "never let an administrator ruin your day" - one can tell you one thing and another one can whistle an entirely different tune. If I was you, and if nothing else works, just turn up on the day and walk through the door - the riot police will most likely be elsewhere.



RobJe -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 14:56:02)

quote:

Flamenco is not a marketable art really, you can advertise it, but really flamenco is cante and nothing else. People try to pretend it's something else, but it's not. If it turns into something else and stll gets called Flamenco then the people calling it that are simply deluded.


I sympathise with this view, but surely it’s simpler than this.

Flamenco grew as an artistic expression of largely marginalised and oppressed people. It was preserved locally through families and dynasties but with a constant creative streak adding to the existing canon. If you want to “go back” you have to either recreate the social conditions of the period (impossible) or try to reproduce the old stuff faithfully.

What has happened is that flamenco has continued to change and develop making it a living art. Trying to preserve the spirit of the old stuff is laudable and we can argue fruitlessly about successes and failures. What happens under the name flamenco inevitably reflects the social conditions of our age.

So if we look at another genre which I will loosely call “Jazz” we can look at one of its founding influences - field hollers - cried out my slaves and share croppers. Although we don’t have original recordings, there are versions made by people who were old enough to remember the originals. We hear the birth of the blues. Nobody has argued about bringing back the social conditions that gave rise to the blues – yet!

I got into flamenco when Paco was still a small child. So when people talk about getting rid of the awful stuff I am reminded of an old guitarist who lived in Cordoba (older than me and no longer with us). He said that Paco and Camarón had ruined flamenco.

Rob



Echi -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 15:07:09)

Flamenco is not only cante: why should it be?
Cante is fundamental but as important are the rhytmic structure, the melodic lines and the accompaniment.



Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 16:04:23)

Looks like it's because the class is linked to a competition with some prize money attached. If the point is to promote young guitarists, it would make sense to have an age limit. Where you can tell that they're not used to flamenco (seems like a general guitar competition that just happens to be focused on "Spanish guitar" this year) is that they say you have to have at minimum "fin de 3e cycle". And in flamenco, adding academic requirements disqualifies a huge amount of good players. I'd say it would be a suggestion for improvement for next time, but given that next year probably will probably be about another genre of guitar music, not sure it makes any sense even suggesting it.



formos -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 17:05:19)

what about Tomatito's collaboration album with Michael Camilo?
since camilo is a jazz pianist, a lot of the songs are jazz, but Tomatito added in some flamenco flavor through his playing [;)]

Some other stuff i like are:


and especially the beginning part of this song


I know traditional flamenco is usually used to accompany singers and especially dancers, so there's often that sudden change in speed and tempo, but i quite like the slower, romantic sounding aspect of it [:)] I think that's why I found myself gravitated towards some of the "fakemenco" artists that I listed in the original post.

I'm quite new to flamenco though, perhaps someone could recommend some songs by reputable flamenco artists that are more on the mellow side? [:D]

Thanks in advance!



Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 17:56:22)

Vicente Amigo has certainly got a lot of "airy" pieces so you'd probably enjoy a lot of his stuff.
You could try some of Nino Josele's stuff. Albums "Paz" (Bill Evans covers) and "el mar de mi ventana" you might enjoy.



Maybe Amos Lora could work?



Maybe some of this?



Or this?



Just don't call any of it flamenco and you'll be safe around these parts! [:D]



Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 18:19:25)

That’s my beef, you can’t just go throwing that word around. Just because Tomatito can play Flamenco very well doesn’t mean everything he plays is Flamenco. In fact last time I saw him live he played MAYBE two Flamenco numbers.



Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 18:32:17)

As long as we agree that this is flamenco puro:



hehe I even found a Malian kora player [8D]



Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 8 2018 19:08:06)

Es puro algo. [:D]
Just kidding, I don’t enjoy his music but I have no problem with Ketama.



estebanana -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 0:30:15)

quote:

I sympathise with this view, but surely it’s simpler than this.

Flamenco grew as an artistic expression of largely marginalised and oppressed people. It was preserved locally through families and dynasties but with a constant creative streak adding to the existing canon. If you want to “go back” you have to either recreate the social conditions of the period (impossible) or try to reproduce the old stuff faithfully.

What has happened is that flamenco has continued to change and develop making it a living art. Trying to preserve the spirit of the old stuff is laudable and we can argue fruitlessly about successes and failures. What happens under the name flamenco inevitably reflects the social conditions of our age.

So if we look at another genre which I will loosely call “Jazz” we can look at one of its founding influences - field hollers - cried out my slaves and share croppers. Although we don’t have original recordings, there are versions made by people who were old enough to remember the originals. We hear the birth of the blues. Nobody has argued about bringing back the social conditions that gave rise to the blues – yet!

I got into flamenco when Paco was still a small child. So when people talk about getting rid of the awful stuff I am reminded of an old guitarist who lived in Cordoba (older than me and no longer with us). He said that Paco and Camarón had ruined flamenco.

Rob


I wouldn't want the social conditions that flamenco developed in to be replicated, that's not nice or practical. Things are bad enough for low in come people now. flamenco doesn't exist in a purified bubble either. What I meant by not marketable is that flamenco that is non stage flamenco happens when people get together, it's an intimate thing. That thing is difficult to market so stage shows get marketed. Stage shows are great, but that other rarer to get into aspect of flamenco as a gathering of tight aficionados is harder to access. And nor for the general public. There is still an aspect of jazz that correlates to the intimate flamenco gathering.

Also I find the constant analogy of flamenco to blues and jazz is getting a little toasty. Americans in particular use it because jazz is the entry point for them, and also guitar. The musics have some interesting connections that are not on the surface that go back to Africa, but we stick to a work song agrarian toilers of the earth origin. That's true, but there's more from Africa.

And jazz was and is packaged to please general public audiences, but not so much the jazz heads that will follow say Cecil Taylor or even Coltrane. Coltrane still scares people and he's probably the most important musician of the late 20th century, across all genera. ( yes I said that)

Speaking of Coltrane, there's a cache of lost recordings from 1963 being released by Impulse! on June 28th. History lives.



Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 0:48:05)

quote:

I got into flamenco when Paco was still a small child. So when people talk about getting rid of the awful stuff I am reminded of an old guitarist who lived in Cordoba (older than me and no longer with us). He said that Paco and Camarón had ruined flamenco.

As much as I personally love Paco and Camaron and everything they inspired and even spend more time listening to modern than old. I can't say that statement is entirely wrong. They definitely opened a door that can never be closed.



estebanana -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 1:40:15)

quote:

As much as I personally love Paco and Camaron and everything they inspired and even spend more time listening to modern than old. I can't say that statement is entirely wrong. They definitely opened a door that can never be closed.


I like the first three records con collaboracion Paco and the Carmaron with Tomatito, but that's not news. I think there's some truth to the door, I'm not really a fan of the guitar-o-centric way the flamenco world has developed, ( ironic right?).

It's possible to like Dexter Gordon and Anthony Braxton equally. In flamenco it always becomes a tawdry food fight. Someone always has to denigrate the guitar playing of the past. In jazz there's more respect for those who just want to immerse themselves in a certain era of specialty... if you're in to Wes Montgomery its cool, no big deal ..I digress



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 5:25:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

I got into flamenco when Paco was still a small child. So when people talk about getting rid of the awful stuff I am reminded of an old guitarist who lived in Cordoba (older than me and no longer with us). He said that Paco and Camarón had ruined flamenco.

Rob


I started listening to records by Sabicas and Mario Escudero in the late 1950s. Of course I had no idea what was actually going on.

I was in the U.S. Army in1962, stationed at Aberdeen Proving Ground, north of Baltimore. If you wore your uniform you could ride the bus to New York City for $5. A disadvantage to the uniform was that when you emerged from the Port Authority bus terminal, the con men queued up to take a shot at you, and the cab drivers tried to take you on a grand tour and charge you four prices.

I soon found the club Zambra just south of Central Park. A pretty good selection of flamenco artists passed through. Once in a while Sabicas showed up for the after hours juerga. One evening I expressed my enthusiasm to an older Spaniard when Sabicas appeared with his entourage.

He replied, “I'd rather listen Fernando Sirvent (the house guitarist.)”

“Why is that?”

“Sabicas plays too many notes. All that showoff stuff is not really flamenco.”

RNJ



Leñador -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 7:41:00)

quote:

He replied, “I'd rather listen Fernando Sirvent (the house guitarist.)”

“Why is that?”

“Sabicas plays too many notes. All that showoff stuff is not really flamenco.”

I can't say I disagree with that, and I'd argue Diego del Morao is closer to that essence than Sabicas. Sure he does and can, but his cante accompinement is very flamenco IMO.
I don't think I've ever heard more than a 5 note picado run out of him and I love that.



sartorius -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 7:51:06)

Personally I'm sick of those guitarists who only seem to be circus performers showing incredible technique, shooting notes like machineguns with no alma or duende. They only lure people that just don't have any idea of what flamenco is all about. Fortunately Paco, Gerardo and many others put the technique at the service of the arte.



RobJe -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 8:30:57)

quote:

“Sabicas plays too many notes. All that showoff stuff is not really flamenco.”


It is interesting that one of the greatest singers Antonio Chacón (1869-1929) was accompanied by Ramón Montoya and then briefly by a very young Sabicas. Both guitarists were accused of using “too many notes”. I remember in my younger days seeing singers really angry about having their flow interrupted by excessive use of falsetas by young guitarists. Usually this was expressed by angry glances or desperate appeals to heaven, but placing a hand over the strings was more a successful strategy!

Montoya is credited with (blamed for?) “inventing” the solo flamenco guitar, probably because he put together all the annoying falsetas he had gleaned from other players and recorded them as a series of solos in 1936 in Paris. To be fair he is also credited with introducing some techniques that are now regarded as standard. Guitarists who came to live and work in London after WW2 usually brought a set of Montoya 78s as their most valuable resource for learning.

No matter how much we express our likes and dislikes in this thread it won’t make much difference. Things change. If forced down off the fence I would say that I like guitarists who have “paid their dues” by immersing themselves in the flamenco that has the strongest links to the past. If these guitarists move onto other stuff I listen and often enjoy. Paco and Tomatito fit into this category.

Rob



Piwin -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 8:54:10)

quote:

Sabicas and Mario Escudero


I wonder what this man would have opined about Escudero. I have a hard time pinning him down. Some of his pieces reveal a rare talent for composition, going far beyond the tendency of many of his contemporaries to just string falsetas together. Other solo pieces of his sound like lesson tapes where he just goes through the basic compas with a few traditional variations.



El Burdo -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 10:06:10)

quote:

Flamenco grew as an artistic expression of largely marginalised and oppressed people. It was preserved locally through families and dynasties but with a constant creative streak adding to the existing canon. If you want to “go back” you have to either recreate the social conditions of the period (impossible) or try to reproduce the old stuff faithfully.

What has happened is that flamenco has continued to change and develop making it a living art. Trying to preserve the spirit of the old stuff is laudable and we can argue fruitlessly about successes and failures. What happens under the name flamenco inevitably reflects the social conditions of our age.


Great. A most direct and precise assessment. I'd go further and say that Flamenco (Puro) expressed a way of life and it is that life that aficionados want to identify with. It's music grounded in social conditions and history. If it's music per se that you like, then the skill, invention and complexity of later flamenco will be attractive.

Manuel Morao has a pretty simple and direct assessment here - in an interview with the foro's 'Zata' - he doesn't diss nuevo flamenco particularly but tells it like it is - it's a peg to hang a fusion of latin* musics together in order to sell in a world where the word 'flamenco' carries significance.

I guess we have a choice - we can listen to what has gone and appreciate the flourish of an art at the right time in its pure form, and respect it for what it was or we can listen and appreciate great art that has developed from it and appreciate it for what it is now. And we can do both. Like life's long river.

https://www.deflamenco.com/revista/entrevistas/interview-with-manuel-morao-1.html

* as a jazz musician who has played a lot of 'latin' music I have become aware finally of the ridiculousness of this term at least in jazz - which one of roughly 500 types of latin music do you want to do the middle 8 in pray tell?



BarkellWH -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 14:30:09)

quote:

“Sabicas plays too many notes. All that showoff stuff is not really flamenco.”


Perhaps, but the so-called "too many notes" was inevitable in the era of the solo flamenco guitar performance on stage, exemplified by Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, and others. Without having to appease singers and dancers, the guitarist was the show, and he made the most of it.

I remember attending performances by Carlos Montoya back in the '60s, and in addition to picados and rasgueados, he would perform extended ligados, hammering on and pulling off, using only his left hand to demonstrate his dexterity while resting his right. He performed extended tremolos as well. His tremolo was dazzling, but like the ligado went on much too long were he accompanying singers or dancers.

Bill



El Burdo -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 15:44:32)

quote:

Without having to appease singers and dancers, the guitarist was the show, and he made the most of it.


I imagine in that case the guitarist wanted to be the show. So, to maintain interest, more athletic and varied material needed to be played. Sadly for me, it's a departure from the cuadro where the whole meaning was the relatively selfless interaction between musicians to produce an event greater than that of the individual musicians, and to a focus on the self. I dare say that if you had the chops, money was part of it too.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Any fans of Nuevo Flamenco? (Jun. 9 2018 22:23:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

Sabicas and Mario Escudero


I wonder what this man would have opined about Escudero. I have a hard time pinning him down. Some of his pieces reveal a rare talent for composition, going far beyond the tendency of many of his contemporaries to just string falsetas together. Other solo pieces of his sound like lesson tapes where he just goes through the basic compas with a few traditional variations.


I never saw Escudero in person. The old Austin Guitar Society (not today's Austin Classical Guitar) put on a concert by him in conjunction with the University of Texas arts program. It sold out the 1200-seat Hogg Memorial Auditorium on campus, but I had to be out of town on business. I heard from several people who were very enthusiastic about his performance, a couple of them knowledgeable aficionados.

Escudero's virtuosity in both playing and composition increased--at least on recordings--beyond his best selling two LPs on ABC.

I saw Sabicas a number of times, more often in the informal setting of the after hours juergas at Zambra in New York City than in solo concerts. He sat on the stage, but shared with other artists, singers, dancers, other guitarists. He didn't act like the big star, just another participant. He was warm, friendly and full of encouragement for the others.

Sometimes the party went on until the sun rose on Sunday morning. There was always a small glass of brandy on the floor beside his chair. He didn't drink much.

Accompanying singers or dancers Sabicas seldom exhibited any pyrotechnics, unless explicitly encouraged by the other artist. Accompanying dancers he was especially precise and supportive, perhaps in some respect due to his years of accompanying the great Carmen Amaya.

While Escudero's technique began to decline with age (but not on recordings as Niño Ricardo's did), Sabicas was rock solid nearly until the end.

RNJ



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