RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Challenges: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=2
- - Spring 2015 - John Walsh Soleá: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=46
- - - RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!!: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=276616



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Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 13:50:48)

quote:

In my opinion we should make clear what is to be voted as Technique and what is Aire.

Technique would be more towards the "are all the pitches in there and do they sound cleanly?" but without caring so much for the rhythm. If you miss notes or make some passages blurred, you'll lose points.

As opposed to that, Aire would be "compas, expressiveness, etc" and your personal touch wouldn't be seen as "a failure". If you do a different rasgueo or accent, you wouldn't lose points (might even win them) but if you lose compas or get your r.h. fingers trapped between the strings, that would cost you some.

I'm completely on board with this description....




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 13:52:52)

quote:

I uploaded a vid of me playing a bit of it in the falsetta swap shop.
That was 80 bpm and I messed up a bit. That's defo my Max at the mo.


Sounds different at that speed [8D]


Being this a challenge, playing it that much slower might be ok but.. shouldn't that be considered "a few points lost for technique" since you're making it easier?

80bpm is almost half speed... should we make that distinction when voting? Waddayathink?




Neotriz -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 13:56:18)

Looks fun and challenging!

I'm in :D

I may need two month frame to accomplish it




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:10:13)

quote:

Being this a challenge, playing it that much slower might be ok but.. shouldn't that be considered "a few points lost for technique" since you're making it easier?


It does sound different, still really pretty. It requires a bit of a different "feel" to pull off well at that speed. Anyhow, just naturally everyone is going to be judged on a curve so certainly if someone nails it at 120 they're gunna get more points than if someone nails it at 90. Johns is the goal but in reality I see most entries coming in at the neighborhood of 100bpm.

Got you down Neoritz!

I'll be typing up the final rules page later today probably around 3:00PST




Dudnote -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:26:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

In my opinion we should make clear what is to be voted as Technique and what is Aire.

Technique would be more towards the "are all the pitches in there and do they sound cleanly?" but without caring so much for the rhythm. If you miss notes or make some passages blurred, you'll lose points.

As opposed to that, Aire would be "compas, expressiveness, etc" and your personal touch wouldn't be seen as "a failure". If you do a different rasgueo or accent, you wouldn't lose points (might even win them) but if you lose compas or get your r.h. fingers trapped between the strings, that would cost you some.

I'm completely on board with this description....


Sounds good to me.

Rui, I'm not clear where your 2 slices of bread (a bit of compas either side) to sandwich the falsetta can fit into this scheme. Learning to play an advanced falsetta with good aire and technique is a very different challenge to making an arrangement within which to put the falsetta. That is not to say I am against your idea - in fact it is a very natural idea, all guitarists have to find arrangements within which to place their falsettas - but the current scoring is maybe not best adapted to it. One option would be to add a third score for the overall arrangement and maintain the aire and technique scores for the falsetta only. Like you might score a sandwich based on the quality of the bread, the butter and the filling.

Another detail that needs some agreement is how think the slices of bread can be. If there are many entries judges are probably not going to want to listen to a lot of 6 minute compositions. Perhaps it is for judges to decide what is and isn't to long and penalize the "bread" part accordingly. Alternatively we put a limit either side, lets say 30 to 40 seconds - not sure if that would be enough or too much. To be discussed.

Bravo for the string deal!!!




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:27:36)

quote:

Anyhow, just naturally everyone is going to be judged on a curve so certainly if someone nails it at 120 they're gunna get more points than if someone nails it at 90.


Remember that we're at foro flamenco.. folks might give a clean 90bpm a better score based on personal preference vs a 120bpm with minor mistakes.


I just think it should be pointed out in the rules/guidelines. Personal preferences for the palo (speed in this case) shouldn't be a factor to Technique, only for Aire. Technique should be towards "objective" evaluation and Aire to "subjective" if that makes sense. Of course, playing out of compas should be an "objective" component of Aire.




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:31:46)

quote:

Sounds good to me.

Rui, I'm not clear where your 2 slices of bread (a bit of compas either side) to sandwich the falsetta can fit into this scheme. Learning to play an advanced falsetta with good aire and technique is a very different challenge to making an arrangement within which to put the falsetta. That is not to say I am against your idea - in fact it is a very natural idea, all guitarists have to find arrangements within which to place their falsettas - but the current scoring is maybe not best adapted to it. One option would be to add a third score for the overall arrangement and maintain the aire and technique scores for the falsetta only. Like you might score a sandwich based on the quality of the bread, the butter and the filling.

Another detail that needs some agreement is how think the slices of bread can be. If there are many entries judges are probably not going to want to listen to a lot of 6 minute compositions. Perhaps it is for judges to decide what is and isn't to long and penalize the "bread" part accordingly. Alternatively we put a limit either side, lets say 30 to 40 seconds - not sure if that would be enough or too much. To be discussed.

Bravo for the string deal!!!



The bread wasn't exactly like you're saying but anyways, you can see in other posts that it has been abandoned for this challenge. We'll leave creativity stuff for the general foro flamenco challenge.

This one is just to:

- Copy the notes as best as you can and as close as possible to the original speed (Technique)

- Add your own expression details to your interpretation (right hand mostly) while staying in compas (Aire).




Dudnote -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:42:51)

Thanks for clarifying Rui. It's crystal clear now.




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 15:52:49)

I'll make clear in the rules that an exact replica of Johns video is what we're shooting for Rui.




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 16:07:31)

"Challenge: John's meat replica, sponsored by D'Addario"

Sounds like a great title for the thread.


Lenny, if you want me to take a look at the post before you submit it, I'll be glad to. I know that so much has been said already that some details might get sidetracked, specially regarding how the submissions will work.

Let's try to make it simple and clear but without missing anything.




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 16:47:09)

Sweet thanks!




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 18:09:37)

I guess I'll wear out two sets of strings while practicing for this.

Maybe it will come out perfectly by the time I wear out my guitar. [sm=lol.gif]




El Kiko -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 19:15:21)

wowo ...difficult stuff to get right ....
and me only a ''Home on the range... ''level guitarist ....god knows what happens when the Deer and the Antelope come in ....havnt got that far ...

Gotta say , really really nice gesture of Don Dawson to throw some stuff in ,,,,
I mean , i use D'addario all the time .... plug ... we all do ..right guys ... ???[:D][:D]

I do have a concert comming up and a lot of other stuff ...like ... life ...I think its called ...
so there should be a reasonable ammount of time to get into it ...

I would be interested in hearing Johns own opinion on the challenge ...
I should pop up and see him since we're in the same country ...is that cheating ???


hmmmmm




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 19:45:15)

You're in whether you like it or not Kiko! [:D]

I've been communicating with John and definitely have his blessing for the challenge.

Not cheating to me, feel free to pop up and get a lesson from him, he's done a workshop on this falseta before




JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 19:55:44)

Hey everyone,
Sorry to anyone who sent me a PM today, I was out of the house all day long and just back now.
I will be sending on PDF's later.
Regarding this challenge, I am really flattered and touched that people would even be interested in the first place in learning my music. It is an honour for me and a great pleasure.
I look forward to hearing the entrants and hopefully seeing some videos afterwards too.
Should I be involved in the judging?
The falseta was recorded at 150BPM but in hindsight i should have recorded it slower, maybe 120-130.
I'm not too concerned what speed you guys decide to play it at. The most important thing for me to come out of the playing would be the sentiment(which I value highly in music) and general direction of the interpretation as well as to capture the groove in your own way.
I will spend some time tonight doing a more detailed transcription with RH fingering as there are one or two odd things in there




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 19:58:37)

Thanks John! I had an idea concerning you judging I'll shoot you a PM and see what you think.

To everyone, I will post a dropbox link to the PDF so people don't have to bug John!




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:17:32)

Hey John,

There's no objection towards the speed, we just have to figure out ways of making this a challenge.

It wouldn't be fair if people playing it cleanly at 90 bpm scored higher in Technique than someone who struggles a bit at 130 bpm but at least shoots for it, don't you agree?


Any suggestions?




El Kiko -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:17:53)

quote:

You're in whether you like it or not Kiko!


D'Oh...




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:26:10)

quote:

It wouldn't be fair if people playing it cleanly at 90 bpm scored higher in Technique than someone who struggles a bit at 130 bpm but at least shoots for it, don't you agree?


I dunno.... I think that's where it ends up in the hands of the judges, how much does that judge value cleanliness to speed. How clean did the 90BPM play, how much did the 130bpm struggle. For me personally I value cleanly played a lot but if the 130 guy only missed one or two things I'd give it to him.....




JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:26:28)

Sr Martins,
I see what you're saying. I will think about it. I've had a long day so might be tomorrow by the time I post any suggestions.
I will read all the suggestions here. Anyway, I don't want to interfere too much. Maybe we can just all agree to a BPM or something




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:33:23)

Right now we have points from 0 to 10 on Technique and Aire.

If someone gets one or two points less on Technique for playing too slow (compared to the video), maybe he gets them back on Aire... and the opposite also applies.


At least that's how this has been thought in order to be fair to everyone's capabilities. Having 20 submissions of everyone playing at 80 bpm "just to be safe" would be kinda boring and not very... challenging. [8D]


The ultimate goal would be a performance at 150 bpm with near perfect Technique and full of "personal Aire", at least that's how I see it.


We should brainstorm this before we go, the rest is pretty much done already.




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 1 2015 20:43:37)

That sounds right to me Rui.




El Kiko -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 12:35:36)

i think yous are overthinking it .. you dont need to tell the judges how to judge ,,..or re adjust things for BPM and all that ...
just let them here the music and put their choices in order ...

the hardest thing you have is getting enough judges together to have a good spread of points..

the only other thing i see is that the falseta chosen , while being nice etc, is also really hard , this would by its nature omit many people that would otherwise have joined in .

it would take me a while to get that falseta sorted in my head .. and then a bit more to play it enough to get any natural personality into it ..




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 13:13:57)

quote:

i think yous are overthinking it .. you dont need to tell the judges how to judge ,,..or re adjust things for BPM and all that ...
just let them here the music and put their choices in order ...


The judges are the participants. If there were no clear goals, nobody would know what the challenge was about. In this case, Technique & Aire should be the goal and the target of the voting.

quote:

the only other thing i see is that the falseta chosen , while being nice etc, is also really hard , this would by its nature omit many people that would otherwise have joined in .


Maybe now you see why there are considerations regarding the difficulty level (speed, simplified parts, cleanliness, etc) when it comes to Technique. Someone who plays it at half speed of the original shouldn't get a 9 or 10 on Technique but could score higher on Aire if that slowing down was put to good "expressive use" on that department.

quote:

it would take me a while to get that falseta sorted in my head .. and then a bit more to play it enough to get any natural personality into it ..


You'll have time to decide.




Leñador -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 15:16:11)

Hey Kiko,
I'm sorting out the rules page now and we're not going to really "tell people how to judge" as much as just give criteria for judging.
At 150bpm how it is in the video, this falseta isn't hard, it's flat out impossible for most of us. But 80bpm I feel like it's completely accessible, and at 100, it's a good challenge. Just give it a try and you'll see, here's the PDF I'll be posting in the rules post.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dfh9arz6d1ayddx/Solea%20Falseta.pdf?dl=0




El Kiko -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 16:07:33)

ok ..
Leñador I trust you totally ...

just have to take into account my lack of musicality , crappy guitar ., lack of compas , inability to walk and chew gum at the same time ..
and i got a bad finger , and mom says i have to eat more vegetables...

I'll have a look and see how it goes ...

its about time somebody did a challenge though italways gets a good buzz going in the foro




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 16:11:11)



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JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 16:18:15)

Lads, don't be stressing. Give it a go, mightn't be as hard as you think. Sure it will be a bit of fun anyway which is the main thing.




Sr. Martins -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 16:24:54)

That's it

1 - Fun
2 - Learn something new
3 - Challenge yourself beyond your current capabilities


I think we have a pretty good system right now which is fair for everyone without getting into categories (beginner, intermediate, advanced) and excessive subjectivity.


It's almost ready to go online.




El Kiko -> RE: !!!John Walsh Solea Falseta Challenge!!! (May 2 2015 19:06:33)

quote:

Lads, don't be stressing. Give it a go, mightn't be as hard as you think. Sure it will be a bit of fun anyway which is the main thing.


john when i read your post i can almost hear the irish accent written in to it..
.....if you put the word 'langer' in there i could here it with a cork accent...[:D][:D]


@Rui I know a girl who fits that description as well ..

1 - Fun
2 - Learn something new
3 - Challenge yourself beyond your current capabilities

shes in Leiria .....
[8D][8D]




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