Question about compas (Full Version)

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ZaidRockso -> Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 1:30:52)

Right so everything is all so confusing again.

I sometimes see someone starting Alegrias at 12, sometimes at 1 . Same with Bulerias.

Another question : is there anything other than tempo that Differentiates Alegrias, Bulerias and Solea ? They all Accent on 3,6,8,10,12.

Last question, What's the difference between Bulerias and Solea por bulerias. If the tempo is all that's different between compas' then how can there be a Solea in Bulerias tempo.

Sorry, really confused with these stuff, and i've tried reading up on it, and when i see someone teaching alegrias starting at 12, or starting at 1, i don't know who to listen to anymore. Thanks in advance.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 1:56:59)

Hi Zaid,
I think the best way to think about it at first is that compás is a flowing cycle of (in the case of Alegrias, Solea and Bulerias) 12 beats.

You can "start" anywhere in that cycle as long as you continue to follow it. So you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6, "2 AND" or anywhere else.

Generally MOST Alegrias and Solea falsetas start on 1, and MOST Bulerias falsetas start on 12.

There is a lot of backstory behind palo names like "Solea por Bulerias". It's useful to remember that flamenco is NOT fundamentally a guitar-centered art form. "Solea por Bulerias" orginally meant that the singer would sing letras of Solea over a bulerias form, but in guitar world it's come to mean "a faster solea normally played por medio".

So is the only difference tempo? Well, when you change tempo you actually change a lot of things. The whole phrasing and soniquete become different.

Hopefully you are even more confused now and will continue to ask questions
[:)]



ZaidRockso -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 2:28:45)

Thanks so much for a clear explanation most is now clear to me.

The only thing i'm still confused about is Solea and Solea por Bulerias.

Both Solea and Bulerias are 3,6,8,10,12. And Solea por bulerias is Solea played in bulerias tempo, Then essentially it's Bulerias? I mean what the difference between solea por bulerias and bulerias if they're same tempo. I understand what you said about letras. But in the " guitar world " is there any difference between solea por bulerias and bulerias?

I mean, if i want to write a solea por bulerias ( i know if i'm asking these questions then i'm probably incapable of it , but just to help me understand ) What would i do to make it a solea por bulerias rather than a buleria if it's the same tempo ?

Thanks again



Leñador -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 2:36:32)

Great answer Andy!



withinity -> [Deleted] (Jul. 22 2014 6:09:06)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 22 2014 8:05:13



machopicasso -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 7:11:54)

quote:

But in the " guitar world " is there any difference between solea por bulerias and bulerias?


Generally speaking, there is a difference in tempo. Solea por bulerias typically ranges from, say, 140 to 160bpm, and bulerias everything above that. Further differences follow from this difference in tempo, as Andy was suggesting earlier.

As you might expect, playing 12-3-7-8-10 at a slower tempo for solea por bulerias allows for certain techniques and musical expressions which most players would not be able to pull off at the faster tempo of a bulerias. As a consequence, certain phrases become associated with the former palo. Some of these are demonstrated in this clip:

What I've written above are crude generalizations. Exceptions to the rule abound in flamenco, which is one of the reasons why it's difficult to learn. But keep at it, and you'll get a feel for it eventually.



machopicasso -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 7:24:19)

quote:

Another question : is there anything other than tempo that Differentiates Alegrias, Bulerias and Solea ? They all Accent on 3,6,8,10,12.


Yes, there are differences. Bulerias is often played in 6's instead of 12's. I've never heard of this happening in alegrias or solea.

Also, whereas a 12-count bulerias normally starts on 12, alegrias and solea normally start on 1. In both palos, you'll sometimes hear a strong accent on beats 1, 2, and 3. This is also true for solea por bulerias, as you can hear at 0:40 in this clip:



Morante -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 9:45:18)

The difference is "soniquete" a word hard to translate, but akin to "feel". Soleá por bulerías is not bulerías: if you play soleá thinking of alegrías you get soniquete of sol por bul. And alegrías sounds nothing like soleá for the same reason, though it may sound like sol por bul, played in a major key and with a completely different style of cante.

Alegrías is usually accompanied in C, with the usual chord changes. Caracoles is also played in C and can be at the same speed, yet sounds different, because the cante is different.

Cantiñas, (romeras, mirabrás etc) of which alegrías is a variant, are usually accompanied in E, but can be accompanied in C (or any other major key. They do not sound like alegrías, nor do they sound like each other. The speed is the same, the compás is the same, the cante is different.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 14:05:05)

quote:

You can "start" anywhere in that cycle as long as you continue to follow it. So you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6, "2 AND" or


You cannot start an Alegrias falseta on six.

Ramon



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Jul. 22 2014 14:36:16)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 26 2015 10:52:36



tri7/5 -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 17:48:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

quote:

You can "start" anywhere in that cycle as long as you continue to follow it. So you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6, "2 AND" or


You cannot start an Alegrias falseta on six.

Ramon


Sez who?



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 18:55:00)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

quote:

You can "start" anywhere in that cycle as long as you continue to follow it. So you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6, "2 AND" or

You cannot start an Alegrias falseta on six.

Ramon


Sez who?


Sez I. You cannot start an Alegrias falseta on six.

Ramon



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Jul. 22 2014 19:21:34)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 26 2015 10:53:07



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 19:34:11)

quote:

Of course you can, why not? Please explain it to me.
Honestly it's not the first time I read things like that from you. Just a provocative phrase without explanation.


Something as obvious as that doesn't require an explanation. And there's nothing "provocative" about stating a self-evident fact. It's like debating whether trees are green.

Ramon



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Jul. 22 2014 20:03:51)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 26 2015 10:54:08



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 20:11:02)

quote:

An obvious fact is as well that you can do anything you like as long as you play it in the proper rhythm.
I mean we are not talking about alegría medio compás (which doesn't really exist), we are just saying you can start where you want.
Never heard anyone saying "you can't start a falseta on that beat, that's the evil beat"
Those are things no one really cares about and of course there aren't rules for that.
Being authentic is another thing.


Please just answer one question and I'll be happy to reply. First of all, I assume we are proceeding on the basis that this Alegrias is being played in compas. If you're talking about playing out of compas, then sure, you can do whatever you want, and nothing matters, and there is absolutely nothing to discuss.

But Alegrias is a rhythmic palo, so I assume we are talking about playing in compas. Proceeding then on that assumption, my only question is the following. In this Alegrias falseta that begins on six, how many total beats are there in this Alegrias falseta that begins on six? And please count them out for me. Thanks for your reply, and I'll respond to it.

Ramon



athrane77 -> [Deleted] (Jul. 22 2014 20:22:09)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 26 2015 10:55:41



Leñador -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 20:37:29)

Why couldn't you start on 6 if it sounded like 6? Why can't you have a falseta that's 3.5 compases long?
Maybe Ramon is saying that NOW, all that regular compas type strumming you did from 1-5 has become part of the falseta automatically?



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 20:53:07)

quote:

quote:

In this Alegrias falseta that begins on six, how many total beats are there in this Alegrias falseta that begins on six?
Didn't understand that. What do you want to say?
And of course I'm not saying playing alegrías out of compás is ok. Did you read my post?



jof - No, I never said you were talking about playing out of compas - I just wanted to establish for certain that we are speaking of playing in compas.

My question was pretty straightforward. You and Andy have said that you can start an Alegrias falseta on beat Six. Please just make up any Alegrias falseta that you say begins on Six, and add up the total number of beats in that falseta. That's easy enough to do. Then after you tell me how many total beats are in this falseta, please count out the beats in writing, so we can all see the count.

Thanks -
Ramon



athrane77 -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 21:28:58)

6+X*12

I wouldn't start an original alegrias falseta on 6. To me it sounds a bit weird, but i mean, if anyone has a nice idea and starting on 6 makes sense musical wise, why not?



El Kiko -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 23:08:29)

ZaidRockso ....your original question was about what beat your Alegrias started on ...

"I sometimes see someone starting Alegrias at 12, sometimes at 1"

Nowadays it more 12 , a modern style .. I think PDL promoted this a lot ... but in the old days when everything was in Black and White .. it would have been on 1....

Heres an old old style beginning ...starts on 1 .....goes to E on 7.8.9 and back to A on 10

But if you want a more modern sound ,starting on 12 and a B7 on beat 3.... then maybe have a look at this useful page...
scroll down to ...FOR GUITARISTS


http://www.studioflamenco.com/About_Alegrias.html#compás



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 22 2014 23:29:23)

quote:

6+X*12

I wouldn't start an original alegrias falseta on 6. To me it sounds a bit weird, but i mean, if anyone has a nice idea and starting on 6 makes sense musical wise, why not?


With all due respect, you haven't fulfilled my very simple request. I'm trying to work with you on this, trying to see if what you and Andy claim has any merit. If I'm wrong I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong.

You have now said that there are twelve beats in this Alegrias falseta that begins on beat Six. What I asked for was a written out sequence of the beats by number, obviously starting with Six. I don't want to do this for you, because it's not my falseta - it's yours. I wouldn't want to count it out wrong. So I would appreciate it if you or Andy would please count out the numbered beats of this twelve beat falseta, starting with Six.

Oh, by the way, could one of you please also tell us exactly on which numbers of these twelve beats the accents fall. Thanks.

Ramon



HolyEvil -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 0:31:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ramon Amira

My question was pretty straightforward. You and Andy have said that you can start an Alegrias falseta on beat Six. Please just make up any Alegrias falseta that you say begins on Six, and add up the total number of beats in that falseta. That's easy enough to do. Then after you tell me how many total beats are in this falseta, please count out the beats in writing, so we can all see the count.

Thanks -
Ramon


In this example:
Start compas on
Beat 12 or 1 (whichever you like) -> beat 5 - silence,
falseta starts at beat 6, ends on 10.

I think that works



Leñador -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 1:04:31)

Alright, not the most clever thing but I think it gets the idea across. Slapped a lil beginning to my already composed falseta. Falseta starts with golpe on 6.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 1:58:00)

Wow... OK I was basically speaking in theoretical terms getting at the fact that it doesn't matter where you "start" a falseta as long as it's in compás.

Ask Jason McGuire or someone of that caliber if you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6... they will answer "you can do whatever the **** you want to do as long as it's in compás".

I can upload an example tomorrow.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 2:48:22)

quote:

Wow... OK I was basically speaking in theoretical terms getting at the fact that it doesn't matter where you "start" a falseta as long as it's in compás.

Ask Jason McGuire or someone of that caliber if you can start an Alegrias falseta on 6... they will answer "you can do whatever the **** you want to do as long as it's in compás".

I can upload an example tomorrow.


Andy - I couldn't agree with you more. Yes, you can do whatever you like - as long as it's in compas. Remember that last part.

Looking forward to your example.

I still would like to see you count out the twelve beats in writing, starting with six. Might help me understand what you mean. Also if it's not too much trouble maybe you could count the beats out loud when you play your example. Starting on beat Six of course. Thanks.

Ramon



Leñador -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 2:59:39)

What about my example there Ramon???



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 3:17:18)

quote:

In this example:
Start compas on
Beat 12 or 1 (whichever you like) -> beat 5 - silence,
falseta starts at beat 6, ends on 10.

I think that works


I'm trying really hard to understand this. Please help me. How many total beats are there in this hypothetical Alegrias falseta?

Ramon



Ramon Amira -> [Deleted] (Jul. 23 2014 3:26:07)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 23 2014 3:30:50



Ramon Amira -> RE: Question about compas (Jul. 23 2014 3:31:41)

quote:

What about my example there Ramon???


As the emperor said in the film Amadeus, "too many notes." I need your help in understanding this. Would you please play just one Alegrias compas, played slowly, and count the beat numbers out loud, naturally starting on Six. Thanks for your help.

Also, I would appreciate it if you would write a separate post and just count out the twelve beats in writing, starting with six. That would really help me.

Ramon



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