RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Full Version)

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gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 21 2013 22:34:06)

So what's it mean to perform, exhibit, etc.?

I get this sense that flamenco has two lines with regards to this question: the line that wants to be a star and the line that just wants to be. This isn't really a starving artist sort of question (and that great art comes from great moments of desperation with the last chunk of bread sitting on the table), but more of a question of which is more flamenco: to perform or not.

I know I'll get lots of "well, there are performances, therefore it's just as much flamenco as the instances where one doesn't perform" comments, or something like that. That's fine, I expect it. However, I suspect that flamenco is much more than just the dances and music and performances, that it's something that comes from a way of life, and that people who don't perform don't do so not because they are anti-exhibitionism but more treat flamenco as if they are tying their shoes: they wear shoes, so they tie them (flamencos play because that's what they do).

Am I wrong?

(ps - this is nothing against those who perform)



mezzo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 25 2013 22:50:11)

quote:

However, I suspect that flamenco is much more than just the dances and music and performances, that it's something that comes from a way of life, and that people who don't perform don't do so not because they are anti-exhibitionism


I wanted to post this YT clip here coz I found this youngers cantando por bule with a tangos style of palmas. So it was kind of puzzle and wanted to ask Ricardo what's tha heck with this pattern?





To answer your Q, I do not think that Flamenco could go hand to hand with no performance. If you think about it, the way of life mindset needs performances. Coz flamenco mean socialisation and interaction.
You are thinking of public performances, gigs and this kind of stuff, but bear in mind that in the privacy of the clan, those who are Flamencos perform everyday in their domestic field.
Where do you think these 2 boys learned their stuff? In a classroom, seeing gigs in theater, with YT?
IMO they learn interacting with others. They learn from performers in their private circle.



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 25 2013 23:11:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

However, I suspect that flamenco is much more than just the dances and music and performances, that it's something that comes from a way of life, and that people who don't perform don't do so not because they are anti-exhibitionism


I wanted to post this YT clip here coz I found this youngers cantando por bule with a tangos style of palmas. So it was kind of puzzle and wanted to ask Ricardo what's tha heck with this pattern?





To answer your Q, I do not think that Flamenco could go hand to hand with no performance. If you think about it, the way of life mindset needs performances. Coz flamenco mean socialisation and interaction.
You are thinking of public performances, gigs and this kind of stuff, but bear in mind that in the privacy of the clan, those who are Flamencos perform everyday in their domestic field.
Where do you think these 2 boys learned their stuff? In a classroom, seeing gigs in theater, with YT?
IMO they learn interacting with others. They learn from performers in their private circle.


Yeah, I actually meant just that - public paid performances as opposed to the so-called inter-clan performances. Of course flamenco is more than just a way of life; the music and dance is essential to that and it's impossible to foster a culture of music without actually performing at some point, even if for private audiences.

I have to deal with this regarding exhibitions. It's pretty important for me to exhibit, but it's not something that I strive to do. I'm not an artist for the purpose of showing my work, but more an artist because I enjoy it. If I could find a way to earn a living without exhibiting then I would. However, the nature of the beast requires that I do so, so I do it. It's not that I hate exhibiting - I don't - but more that I prefer to be in close comfort with friends than networking. I'm actually pretty shy.



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 25 2013 23:13:47)

btw - cool clip. though the kid on the left needs to get his baseball priorities straight.



Leñador -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 25 2013 23:31:22)

Que cabello!! lolol



mezzo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 8:10:01)

listen to their big brothers (with some alcohool). Same tangos palmas pattern [8D]




mark74 -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 9:57:19)

I dont know what this guy is singing about, but it sounds like homicide




por medio -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 10:08:03)

I'm no Ricardo but that's not Tangos pattern. As far as I know they're just doing a variation of in 6's : 12 - 1.5 - 3 etc.

Pretty groovy stuff.



mezzo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 10:33:07)

when I said it's a tangos pattern it's becoz it reminds me the 123x123x123x (x means silence).
For me they're doing this : x 1 2 3 x 1 2 3 x 1 2 3...
if it's speeding up (alot more), could it became a tangos rythm?



por medio -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 10:49:16)

No man they're accenting at 12 - 1.5 - 3. Even sped up it can't really be tangos.

In the second video that you posted (the big boys one) the pattern is clearer since 1.5 is a nice obvious contra. The first video the boys just do 12 - 1.5 -3 and that's where it might have got you a little confused.

I hope Ricardo doesn't turn up and say that I've got it totally wrong... [:D]



mezzo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 10:56:55)

ok if they're doing 12 1.5 3 (I assume that these are the clapped one), what is the beat related to the silence one ?
The cycle I heard include a silence. Do you hear it that way too?



por medio -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 11:32:14)

I think the silence that you might be hearing is what comes after 3 in a 6's cycle - i.e. 4-5

I think you might be hearing the palmas as "TA-TA-TA-(silence)" like tangos and but you need to hear it as "TA-tiTA-ta-TA-(ta-ta)" or "TWELVE-one AND-two-THREE-(four-five). The ones in the brackets are what you are perceiving as "silence".

That just sounded really confusing. How can I explain this in words...

The BEST way is simply do palmas with the video. Just do 6's where you accent 12 and 3. If you lock in with them you'll see where their contra at 1.5 falls and you'll find that they're simply doing a Bulerias.



mark indigo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 14:46:58)

quote:

I'm no Ricardo but that's not Tangos pattern. As far as I know they're just doing a variation of in 6's : 12 - 1.5 - 3 etc.

Pretty groovy stuff.
quote:

when I said it's a tangos pattern it's becoz it reminds me the 123x123x123x (x means silence).
For me they're doing this : x 1 2 3 x 1 2 3 x 1 2 3...
if it's speeding up (alot more), could it became a tangos rythm?


I agree with por medio, it's bulerías 12 - 1.5 - 3

but understand why mezzo can hear the three claps as 2 3 4 in tangos, because if the three claps are beats then the silence is equal to one beat.

if you've ever heard anyone switch rhythms from bulerías to tangos how they do it is 12 - 1.5 - 3 - 4.5 in bulerías = 1 2 3 4 in tangos.

You can sometimes use the same falseta for bulerías and tangos too, if it is steady regular two-notes-per-beat in bulerías one compás = one compás of tangos three-notes-per-beat (ie.triplets)



Arash -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 15:26:23)

right at the beginning until around 0:11, if you look at the hands of the right boy, you can even see some of those silent (ta-ta) por medio mentioned ;)



Ricardo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Nov. 26 2013 22:46:59)

monsieur mezzo is correct....so is por medio but you just don't get what he means. he means the claps that go against the time are the same as tangos if taken out of bulerias context



mezzo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Dec. 5 2013 8:46:09)

The 1st letras she sing is a solea one (at least I heard it several time in that palo), put in a tientos context...(the sound is very bad).





[the guitarrista won the 2013 Cordoba festival premio, listen @12' [;)] ]



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Dec. 11 2013 18:39:12)

And I'm back. The last one was apparently completely uninteresting. Hopefully this question isn't.

What exactly is the "flamenco social strata"?

I got this from Howson's book on page 109. He refers to a singer's mother having owned a whorehouse and this allowed them to climb out of the flamenco social strata and until the middle class.

Now, I get what he's saying, and this image fits quite well with the culture that I have imagined all along with regards to flamenco as a culture. But does this exist anymore? The book takes place in the late 40s, so no big deal there. Maybe things have changed. I suspect, however, that some elements remain.

Anyone have any experience sort of "living the flamenco life"? And by that I don't mean touring and performing. I mean living amongst flamencos in everyday settings.



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 13:30:44)

It's been ages since I've been here. Been super busy. Sad to hear the news about Paco de Lucia. Quite young at 66. I read he was playing with his grandson (or daughter). The Godfather came to mind when I read that. Can't be a good thing for the kid to have to go through that.

I have been googling how to palmas videos just to try to get an idea of the basic compas for the various forms. I'm not very coordinated, but I think I'm getting there. I first learned Fandangos and now I'm trying Bulerias. I think its the swing that's hardest.

But I've finished with The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay and have moved on to Seeking Silverio: the Birth of Flamenco by Paco Sevilla. Amazing book. Much more serious than Howson's, though Howson's was certainly entertaining.

One thing that I'm finding quite strange is how Sevilla depicts singers as being in demand (lots of cafes, parties, etc) and yet there not being enough work to live off the singing. This contradiction strikes me as odd, but then it seems that the artists didn't do it for the money, just to play and work. I wonder if this is still true today.

The rise of Antonio Chacon thus far has been a great read.



mark indigo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 13:43:35)

quote:

Seeking Silverio: the Birth of Flamenco by Paco Sevilla. Amazing book. Much more serious than Howson's, though Howson's was certainly entertaining.
but.... Howson's book is a memoir and Sevilla's book is a self professed work of historical fiction....

quote:

One thing that I'm finding quite strange is how Sevilla depicts singers as being in demand (lots of cafes, parties, etc) and yet there not being enough work to live off the singing. This contradiction strikes me as odd, but then it seems that the artists didn't do it for the money, just to play and work. I wonder if this is still true today.
my impression from reading the book (several years ago now) was that well known singers were in demand and the young protagonists were trying to break into the scene. Also that although there was work available there were lots of artists vying for it, and the pay wasn't high. I didn't see any contradiction, but I'm due to read it again some time so I might have missed something....



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 14:27:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Seeking Silverio: the Birth of Flamenco by Paco Sevilla. Amazing book. Much more serious than Howson's, though Howson's was certainly entertaining.
but.... Howson's book is a memoir and Sevilla's book is a self professed work of historical fiction....


I got that this was sarcastic in some way, but didn't catch the relevance to my comment, unless you're poking at Howson. Howson's book was really entertaining. Some lively characters, and I'm really not sure how authentic it is. Not sure I care either. It's a well-told story at the very least.

Sevilla's book is definitely historical fiction, but it seems he really did a lot of research and in fact seems to have taken excerpts from other sources and implanted them into his book (with credit, of course). His story-telling flows much better than Howson's book does, but Howson's story fell apart at the end. I think he just needed to find a way to finish. Sevilla's doesn't sit on that precipice of what's going to happen next. One can almost feel what will happen next based on the foundation of the story, but of course it's how it happened that makes it intriguing.

Very different styles, but I love them both thus far. I feel that I'm learning more from Sevilla than I did from Howson. This may be unfair since I read Howson's first and there are terms in that book that I don't need to look up now (i.e. - I'm reading at a more "advanced" level - if that's what you want to call it).

quote:

quote:

One thing that I'm finding quite strange is how Sevilla depicts singers as being in demand (lots of cafes, parties, etc) and yet there not being enough work to live off the singing. This contradiction strikes me as odd, but then it seems that the artists didn't do it for the money, just to play and work. I wonder if this is still true today.
my impression from reading the book (several years ago now) was that well known singers were in demand and the young protagonists were trying to break into the scene. Also that although there was work available there were lots of artists vying for it, and the pay wasn't high. I didn't see any contradiction, but I'm due to read it again some time so I might have missed something....


Well, there's definitely that feel to it for sure. There are a lot of people competing for work and the kids are breaking in, but at the same time the invites are endless.

I wonder if / when the idea of getting paid after a performance stopped, and when performers started to get paid in advance (for parties, of course). This idea has to be dead right?



Morante -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 18:25:25)

quote:

I wonder if / when the idea of getting paid after a performance stopped, and when performers started to get paid in advance (for parties, of course). This idea has to be dead right?


In Cádiz, performers are always paid after the performance.



mark indigo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 19:26:44)

quote:

I got that this was sarcastic in some way, but didn't catch the relevance to my comment, unless you're poking at Howson.
I wasn't being sarcastic or poking at Howson. I just thought it was odd that you thought a work of historical fiction was more serious than a memoir (which is why I put the "but...." in there)



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 19:48:28)

quote:

In Cádiz, performers are always paid after the performance.


Yeah, what I'm saying is that it was apparently pretty customary to get paid after the performance at a party at least through the 1950s (more or less). Just wonder when that stopped (or if it did). Again, not talking about on-stage stuff.



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 6 2014 19:52:30)

quote:

I wasn't being sarcastic or poking at Howson. I just thought it was odd that you thought a work of historical fiction was more serious than a memoir (which is why I put the "but...." in there)


I guess I was saying that the tone is more serious, or that Sevilla's book is clearly more academic whereas Howson's seems more off-the-cuff.

Sevilla wrote sections in the back explaining what was fiction and what was not, and he referenced quite a bit of his claims. Howson had end-notes, too, but they were more to explain things that would have been awkward in the text.

Also, Howson's book is more sped up whereas Sevilla slowed down to explain complex events, thus making it longer and more dense.

edit: I think Sevilla was trying to relay history in the best way he thought he could. Howson was just telling a story.



mark indigo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 9:29:10)

quote:

I think Sevilla was trying to relay history in the best way he thought he could. Howson was just telling a story.
I thought Sevilla was trying to tell a story too, and that Howson's book was in many ways history.... I don't think the distinctions are really either that clear or that important though.... [;)]



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 12:23:30)

Yeah, well for me they are very different books with very different styles. Howson's storytelling is the point in my opinion, whereas Sevilla's storytelling is a means to an end.

Anyway, you're right. They're both good and definitely worth reading. I've learned a lot from them in so many ways. I think the problem I have is wondering if many of these traditions are continued today; how much of it is real or relevant today, and how much of it has long since passed on.



mark indigo -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 12:41:34)

you can look at the changes in flamenco reflecting the social changes in Spain from the time of the Sevilla's book to the time of Howson's book to the time of today. Have you read Sevilla's other books? the one on Carmen Amaya and her time, and the one on Paco de Lucía and his time?



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 12:48:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

you can look at the changes in flamenco reflecting the social changes in Spain from the time of the Sevilla's book to the time of Howson's book to the time of today. Have you read Sevilla's other books? the one on Carmen Amaya and her time, and the one on Paco de Lucía and his time?


That's an interesting approach. I hadn't thought of that. I have the book on Carmen Amaya and that's next. I don't have his book on Paco De Lucia. I wonder if his site is still up.

I'll be honest, though, some of the things Sevilla is saying about the flamenco culture of the late 1800s isn't that different from what Howson was saying about the late 1940s and early 1950s. I've heard some people say that flamenco is now broken up into Before Paco and After Paco, so I wonder if that book would be a key considering we're talking about the 60s and beyond.



Morante -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 17:06:14)

quote:

. I've heard some people say that flamenco is now broken up into Before Paco and After Paco,


This is just a facile way of thinking. The enormous social changes in Spain which came with the death of Franco, the establishment of a fragile democracy, the end of censorship which allowed the entrance of foreign culture such as rock and pop music, opened a closed Spanish culture to the world, established the wild pop culture in Madrid, with punk artists like Alaska etc.

Paco and Camaron made several relatively traditional Cds; it was not until Camaron fell under the influence of the Madrid movement and recorded Leyenda de Tiempo, collaborating with Kiko Veneno, Pata Negra etc. that the "new" flamenco took hold.

But remember that Cameron continued to sing traditional flamenco in his concerts with Tomatito, while his records followed the path dictated by his producer.

Meanwhile Paco realised that he would not make money with records, so formed his sextet and began to play to big audiences. Nowadays this is still the only way to make money in flamenco.



gmburns -> RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (Mar. 7 2014 17:26:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:



Meanwhile Paco realised that he would not make money with records, so formed his sextet and began to play to big audiences. Nowadays this is still the only way to make money in flamenco.


This is interesting. I didn't know this, though I guess it makes sense. Live flamenco is much better than recorded for sure. It doesn't always work for other genres (ever seen Smashing Pumpkins in concert? Didn't think so, and there's a reason why you're not admitting it if you did).

So continuing to perform is still the way, except that how one performs seems to have changed.



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