RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Full Version)

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Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:00:43)

Yes, it does.

However, I have my bias against an anchoring thumb, though its pros and cons being a personal impression which I am not sure of whether it to be universally valid or not.

I suppose it might depend on the way / measure how the thumb being rested.
In my personal experience it showed that if there being too much clinch ( weight )/ hence the thumbs major phalanx muscles engaged too much while busy with keeping the thumbs angle from opening too far, the strain with the major muscle apparatus will simultaneously be blocking the four fingers.
( With the discrete fact of thumbs crossways apparatus potentially hindering fine motorics of the fingers being an obejctively valid circumstance.)

In my case at least it turned out that fingers, hindered through a bearing or extended thumb to have been a main cause for tensed playing. I now anchor less and much lighter, and it seems to significantly relief the fingers.

In the end I think: What you can do without ( or with less, for that matter ) anchoring you can do just the more easier with an anchored thumb if needed.
Ergo, exercising with thumb off should be a rather useful thing to do.

The thumb matter; certainly relevant / probably worth a separate thread.

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:11:46)

quote:

n my case at least it turned out that fingers, hindered through a bearing or extended thumb to have been a main cause for tensed playing. I now anchor less and much lighter, and it seems to significantly relief the fingers.


Did you have a teacher show you? That sounds unusual for me and my experience. Usually folks are not making use of thumb ENOUGH. So your fingers are more free with the thumb not holding on to a bass string or sound board???

I added something to my last post that I moved here regarding that classical guitar article, but moved it here:

So I am not against your beloved article, I just don't get what is going on practically. I need to SEE what he is doing and hear how it sounds when he does it, that is all really, or at least a clear verbal visual of practical playing application. In some cases I skipped over some of what he says because they dont' apply to flamenco technique.

For example, saying that flexing the joints only feels good for free stroke, extended for resting is NOT true for flamenco players in general. About 50% flex ALSO when doing picado. Then he says tension released by rest stroke unlike free stroke. Because obvious he doesnt rest his thumb basses LIKE FLAMENCOS do. Later a question regarding tip joint flexing. They say its ok either way...but like using a floppy thin pick, there will be a delay and speed will be lost if you let it flex, Has to be stiff to go fast as with a thicker plectrum....and more things I am sure simply don't apply or rather can be ignored once you get on with proper FLAMENCO techniques vs classical techniques.

IMO.

Ricardo



jg7238 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:14:21)

Thank you Orson. It's all about being relaxed. There is no other way around it. Also, having the right nail shape and length is essential not only for tone but speed as well. That means having short nails and fairly round in shape. In my opinion, I really never had a good picado until I reached my twenties believe it or not and currently I am very proud of myself with the results I have achieved. So anybody willing to put in the work and rework certain areas in technique can achieve fantastic results. Look at Todd's progress with his right hand. That's a great example right there. The other one is the guy who is no longer on the forum anymore. I believe his name is Evan who is studying with El Entri. I think he is doing a nice job. We might have certain limitations but they are not as big as we think they are. Thanks Ricardo for your input.



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:25:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I need to SEE things done or have things translated to actual music. I am one who is more into not doing exercise for technique UNLESS it is musical. I think all things can be worked through music as it is more fun and inspiring as well.


As such do I consider my own initial approach, and it did by far not turn out comparable to yours; with my case instead being deemed a technical fiasco by me.

Admittedly, the way you mention can develop relatively efficiently, or at times even amazingly well.
The most paradox example maybe being J.J. Cale. To me the best composer and player of popular music ever.
And that eventhough his technical posture being a catastrophy at its best. Yet, he manages to compose and groove like no other. ( Which is why his songs being played by more major acts - of different genres - than anyone´s.)

But if it is me as a teacher I would never go that way ever with pupils. Allowing unconscious technical misconceptions to sneak in while busy with hunting the music, which will either have to be resolved later on as sturdy handicaps or dragged on for the rest of the players´s life.

I rather invest beginner´s time in consistant ergonomy until seamless basic technique has been established, ensueing the muscial progress yet afterwards.

Such clearly ought to be the least wasteful and satisfying way after all.

A bit less rewarding to the early beginner, right, but just the more satisfying and diverting on the long run of his playing career.

Ruphus



Florian -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:34:28)

quote:

Do you have exceptional rhythm? Can you say the rhythms verbally that you want to play with picado?


that is brilliant advice and way of analyzing it ..and an excellent secret to good picado...

on a sidenote ...

reading threads describing picado and trying to concentrate and understand all the instructions and explonations on the positioning of the fingers and angles etc...its actually harder then picado...i can never find the patience to read the whole thing or even begin to understand the instructions..

but dont get me wrong, i am not saying you shouldn't... its natural to wanna talk about it etc...i just cannever focus on it ..i always get lost, I always feel like i am the last guy in the world to understand any of the instructions...[:D]



XXX -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:40:53)

quote:

Do you have exceptional rhythm? Can you say the rhythms verbally that you want to play with picado?


so i not only have to be able to play fast but also talk fast? [&:][:D]
no i really think thats a not so good advice... better would be" can you tap your fingers on the table in a rhythm" or something, thats easy enough for everyone to check his/her rhytmic abilities! whenever i try to verbally these taka tuka forms i twist my tongue...



Florian -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:43:59)

quote:

so i not only have to be able to play fast but also talk fast?


actually...funny enough , i think yes...you should be able to describe any rithm or melody to someone with taka taka ta ...etc.....it helps good rithm IMO..if you cant hear it in your head and emulate it with your voice (or even if just in your head to yourself...but voice helps you hear yourself ) how could you do it with your hands ? most of picado is not in the finger is in your head..after much practice is not your finger that changes that much ..is your mind and the way u hear it before you do it, u have a more perfect clear picture of exactly what you want and that puts you one step closer to achiving exactly what you want...finger is just the tool that makes the contact...your brain drives your picado....but this is all IMO.

once its set and clear in your head..hands WILL follow

and u might think u can hear it (and maybe you can)...but can you really ? in every detail and every accent ? that's why it helps to be able to express it in voice i think...tapping it is ok too but ...being able to describe rithm...falsetas , picado etc in voice helps a lot with dancers and for me its eazyer also helps you process and understand dancers rithm better... tapping your finger on a table only gives you 1 repetative tone...doing it verbally u can hear all the tones and where they fall




just tonight i was doing alot of " - taka taka ta" [:D]...there's no substitute for it...i cant think of any other clearer way of describing or communicating a rithm



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 14:45:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Usually folks are not making use of thumb ENOUGH.


If you mean playing wise; yes, typically people seem shy of using their thumbs.
As I suppose because of the thumbs anatomy, that might be challenging in alteration with the fingers.

In my case however the thumb was used relatively equally from start.

Whereas in regard of anchoring with the thumb: To my observation that is what everyone likes to do on default, as it being easier in general.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

So your fingers are more free with the thumb not holding on to a bass string or sound board???


Definitly.
The crossway apparatus of the thumb counteracts the fingers apparatus on principle ( which it ought to, as it originally served grabbing [ branches while swinging through the trees [;)] )
Thus, the more strained the thumbs major muscles the more the thumbs appartus will be getting in the way of the fingers motoric subtlety.

Ruphus



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 16:20:55)

quote:

So my approach for the time being is in a way similar to Grisha's fast picado training, where you do NOT play the whole run slowly and carefully and increase the metronome as you go, but play at full speed in "burst" mode...ie..2 notes at full speed, then 3, then 4...etc etc.

That way you are actually recreating and practising the actual "feel" of the muscles, hand tension and pre-loading etc at full speed, which is quite different to playing slowly.


Ron made this interesting point on his buleria thread. I also follow Grisha's youtube advice and do this, as well as the very slow practice. I'll try anything!

I must say after years of punkrock/autodidact attitude I am really enjoying getting into the technical aspect of playing. I am well educated in anatomy/neurology/human movement so I enjoy applying prinicples that I use at work, to my own guitar playing.
And it feels great to enjoy playing music and not be so distracted and hobbled by poor technique.



ToddK -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 20:39:40)

Nice job there JG. I get what Ricardo is saying about how you're playing that one.
The implied pulse of the original is so strong. That is not an easy thing to emmulate.
I have an impulse to try to explain, but wow, this subject is so hard to verbalize.
I like how you're playing it ok, but i would like to hear you groove more, and record your vids with a metronome or something holding the pulse. Your classical roots are very strong. How much ensemble playing have you done with a percusionist?

There are some pretty big chasms between how people hear things here. But you have to trust in players like Ricardo, that have spent alot of time around the best players in the world, and have been in the deep end since youth.

Ricardo is giving out some precious gems of advice. Some people are not getting it, or are not willing to accept it. If your instincts arent firing when you read his advice, then, hmmm, i dont know. I'd really think about it if i were you.
TK



mezzo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 20:45:06)

quote:

Ricardo is giving out some precious gems of advice

Ricardo always do this [:)]



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 21:40:56)

quote:

so i not only have to be able to play fast but also talk fast?
no i really think thats a not so good advice... better would be" can you tap your fingers on the table in a rhythm" or something, thats easy enough for everyone to check his/her rhytmic abilities! whenever i try to verbally these taka tuka forms i twist my tongue...


The one thing I've heard from players like Ricardo as well as at workshops from Jeronimo Maya and Rafael Cortes - if you can't sing it there's a problem. Doesn't mean you have to make the tones staccato with your lips at the same speed [:D]

And every one of my students that I make sing a melody will automatically play it better right afterwards - there is definitely something to it.



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 22:36:01)

quote:

Can you say the rhythms verbally that you want to play with picado?


I tried this and I can sing (out of tune!) the phrases much faster than I can play them.
However just singing the phrase alone ,or singing along while I am playing really seems to make it easier to play.

Thank you for this great new piece of advice to add to the process. I can see it's good for practicing anything, whatever the techinque.



mrMagenta -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 5 2011 23:06:00)

quote:

if you cant hear it in your head and emulate it with your voice (or even if just in your head to yourself...but voice helps you hear yourself ) how could you do it with your hands ? most of picado is not in the finger is in your head..after much practice is not your finger that changes that much ..is your mind and the way u hear it before you do it, u have a more perfect clear picture of exactly what you want and that puts you one step closer to achiving exactly what you want...finger is just the tool that makes the contact...your brain drives your picado....but this is all IMO.


Well written Flo! That mirrors my experience too.. I've been helped a lot by 'taketitaka'. Sometimes I struggle with a very similar arpeggio or picado in one context that I have no problems with in another, and almost always the answer to this is that in one of the case I have a too fuzzy grip of the 'taketitaka'.

Regarding the age thing.. It's probably true that we can't achieve the same speed if we start late in life, but this thought can in itself be holding a lot of people back from achieving very good speed, speed that is attainable at their age. People begin to doubt their abilities and potential. That sucks out the motivation needed to stick to practice.

There are a lot of youth fixated ideas about musical ability. These things often get my blood boiling.. even when they are presented very objectively. I can't help but take these things like a challenge to me personally. They tend to go against my personal experience of learning, perhaps because I haven't got severly stuck at a plateu yet, but there's something else in it that bugs me more.. It's the notion of someone lowering their expectations of you and your learning abilites because of age. Frankly, it can feel like an insult. I think these things need to be challenged even when there is truth in them.

Back to picado. I didn't even know the word until I was 25. But all the same I need a good picado in my box of tools, and I'm determined to achieve it.

Ricardo
If you can define a picado challenge, something which you really wouldn't expect even a very diligent late starter to pull off. I think I would work very hard on it! I accept that young kids learn faster, but that's not the issue, so I'm not looking for a 'learn this in 2 weeks' thing but rather a 'get back to me in a couple of years' perspective. If you want to set up such a challenge for me, and any other late starters here on the foro who would be up for it, I would be greatful! :-)



jg7238 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 0:10:14)

Thanks Todd. If you watch my 2nd take on the intro, it is better than the first thanks to Ricardo. :) He is right about rushing the notes in between the runs on my first video which threw the compas off. The key is getting the right accents on every run correctly. Also spacing the notes properly in between the scale passages is very important. I have done some work with percussionists but mostly Latin pop stuff. I value Ricardo's advice very much because I know he has a great deal of knowledge and experience to offer on top of being a fine player. At first I tended to disagree with him but in the end he was right.



ToddK -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 0:43:29)

quote:

Thanks Todd. If you watch my 2nd take on the intro, it is better than the first thanks to Ricardo. :) He is right about rushing the notes in between the runs on my first video which threw the compas off. The key is getting the right accents on every run correctly. Also spacing the notes properly in between the scale passages is very important. I have done some work with percussionists but mostly Latin pop stuff. I value Ricardo's advice very much because I know he has a great deal of knowledge and experience to offer on top of being a fine player. At first I tended to disagree with him but in the end he was right.


Just to be clear JG, when i mentioned people who dont listen, i certainly
didnt mean YOU! :)

Basically, its just keeping with the accents on the strong beats as Ricardo described.
TK



XXX -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 1:04:11)

Most of the stuff i can "sing", or use "um da ta" or whatever, at a slower speed as the original track. But when i use my hands to tap a rhythm im just faster. I usually have no problems to emulate rhythms quite quick, like playing along tapado to a falseta or a dancer's steps. My problem is more getting the right rasgeado pattern for each step.
When its about singing actual tones i also think its a great idea, sure! It makes it alot easier if you have a melody connected to rhythm!!

Another thing i do, which is way faster than my tongue or my fingers is my mouth, specifically my lower jaw. You might try it, it has helped me alot. Just move it left/right.



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 3:54:25)

A shout out to Ricardo for a big THANKS!!!!!! to all your wisdom.

I'm gonna print this thread

Thank you all [:)]



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 4:01:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

so i not only have to be able to play fast but also talk fast?


actually...funny enough , i think yes...you should be able to describe any rithm or melody to someone with taka taka ta ...etc.....it helps good rithm IMO..if you cant hear it in your head and emulate it with your voice (or even if just in your head to yourself...but voice helps you hear yourself ) how could you do it with your hands ? most of picado is not in the finger is in your head..after much practice is not your finger that changes that much ..is your mind and the way u hear it before you do it, u have a more perfect clear picture of exactly what you want and that puts you one step closer to achiving exactly what you want...finger is just the tool that makes the contact...your brain drives your picado....but this is all IMO.

once its set and clear in your head..hands WILL follow

and u might think u can hear it (and maybe you can)...but can you really ? in every detail and every accent ? that's why it helps to be able to express it in voice i think...tapping it is ok too but ...being able to describe rithm...falsetas , picado etc in voice helps a lot with dancers and for me its eazyer also helps you process and understand dancers rithm better... tapping your finger on a table only gives you 1 repetative tone...doing it verbally u can hear all the tones and where they fall




just tonight i was doing alot of " - taka taka ta" [:D]...there's no substitute for it...i cant think of any other clearer way of describing or communicating a rithm



Hit the nail on its head right here Flo. But i can't sing with takatakas to imitate the sound and speed of the picado i would want to achieve.

Rather, on a comical sidenote...

i use my tongue and swing it back and forth sideways while humming different pitches. When your tongue reaches one end you produce a sound ( air is blocked and is funneled through the side), likewise on the other side as well. The speed of your "tongue" picado is basically how fast you could swing that licker side to side. hehehehe. LOL

[:D][:D][:D]

Cheers



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 7:03:10)

quote:

Thus, the more strained the thumbs major muscles the more the thumbs appartus will be getting in the way of the fingers motoric subtlety.


Trying to get this, at the moment I'm pushing my thumb as hard as I can against the edge of the table and moving my fingers around freely. My thumb is red from the pressure but the biggest joints in my fingers are completely free to play what they want.

Out of curiosity I looked this up:



The thumb muscles seem completely seperate from the fingers. That muscle on the outside under the pinkey is what causes it to straighten, but it would seem to me as a laymen that the thumb muscle has little to do with the fingers - keep in mind using this picado the hand is straight and we're only talking about the fingers starting at the biggest joint. If I use my entire hand to push the thumb against the table then you're right. That's not the correct technique though.

Anyone here really knowledgeable in anatomy?

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 7:12:03)

quote:

Anyone here really knowledgeable in anatomy?


yes me. this is all crap. just copy the PDL vids.[:D]



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 7:14:00)

LOL agreed



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 11:52:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
Trying to get this, at the moment I'm pushing my thumb as hard as I can against the edge of the table and moving my fingers around freely. My thumb is red from the pressure but the biggest joints in my fingers are completely free to play what they want.


I clearly do feel a difference with the maneuverability of the fingers while either resting the thumb on the table or not ( yet far before pressing hard / thumb getting red ), and I wonder how you would not.
Keep in mind that the difference between free maneuverability and subtle hindering will mean a difference in concern of optimal functionality with playing techniques.
( Also remember that individual success in overcoming phsysiologically counter productive execution won´t count as example for optimal technique conditions or playing didactics.)

If you add the below graphics to yours you might get an idea of how thumbs muscles and tendons do overlay and interfere into those of the fingers. ( Though only displaying flexors yet.) Also consider that a contracted thumb will not only effect the pinky, but the other fingers as well.

Vice versa thumbs execution like in the last picture serves as a guideline for cooks to tell how the consistance of a frying steak will be. While pressing against the tip of the a finger the muscle cord between i finger and thumb will ressemble the tenderness of a well-done steak, pressing against the m-finger ressembling medium, and against the i finger indicating softness of a bloody steak.
Another example of thumbs and fingers mutual influence.

Funny, innit?

Ruphus



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:04:50)

Too bad I can't pound my hand to make my fingers longer [:D]

quote:

individual success in overcoming phsysiologically counter productive execution won´t count as example


With this you mean almost all flamenco guitarists?

This topic can't and won't be settled here, I'm sure. Whatever muscle is where, just look at how the pros do it and try to copy. Or don't and see what happens [:)]



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:23:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

With this you mean almost all flamenco guitarists?

Almost all guitar players.

Players seem to have their strenghts in engaging physically optimally, and partially in acrobatics / atheletics in overcoming imperfect execution.

I absolutely agree with you in letting oneself inspired by watching virtuousos. Such undoubtedly has a tremendously positive effect ( especially mentally, which we havn´t discussed here ).
But it won´t be meaning yet that exploration of optimal technique was to be useless / neglectable. Especially in concern of pathing or improving ways for highest technical efficiency.

Not all have the same talent of finding ergonomics within their playing method, nor in overcoming imperfect technique.
And specially for those who aren´t that lucky ( nor e.g. tutored by Paco Pena ), it is where optimal information on subtleties comes in / shall come in as determining support.

It can be the difference between say 40 years of crawling ( and never arriving ) or say ~ 5 years to admirable proficiency.

Ruphus



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:32:20)

Okay so to be a guitarist you have to be successful in overcoming phsysiologically counter productive execution, so do that then. But why can't it then count as an example? [&:]

Point lost, topic dead, I'm off to practice...



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:47:02)

You are reacting incoherently.



John O. -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:48:28)

No, I'm saving practice time [:D]

The moment you show me a video of you playing a great picado without achoring the thumb we can continue.



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:52:56)

easy John...



Elie -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 6 2011 12:53:23)

the fact is that you guys are wasting time with a sterile debate. [:D]



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