Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Full Version)

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CarloJuan -> Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 2:58:47)

It continues to bother me, in guitar technique, that i have to CHOOSE, between one technique from the other. Why not have both? When both sets of technique work for you? Usually this two sets of different techniques are totally different.

I've been experimenting and practicing Grisha's push type-sort of classical but flamenco sounding picado with the norm picado like Paco's (with extending pinky). Having an extended pinky, DOES have its anatomical benefits. IMO, when your picado goes breakneck speeds, the extended pinky helps to counter-act the inclination of the anular and pinky fingers to curl towards the palm (which when it does, it becomes harder to control the speed). Observe grisha's picado, when he goes too fast, his pinky curls towards his palm. I'm not judging his technique, it works so perfectly for him. But for me, when the a and pinky fingers curl toward my palm, it's way too tensed to play any further.

I've now tried Paco's technique: your palm more narrow, like your knuckles bent closer to the strings and extended pinky. This technique has a very robust, metallic and flamenco sound.

Both techniques work for me. And i'm content and happy that i feel i don't have to choose between the two, why can't i have both? am i being too greedy?

Both have different sounds as well: equally beautiful sounds. One is a bit more mellow and one is fierce. I could only imagine the subtle nuances i could create in my music and repertoire by utilizing both.

Do any of you folks agree? or disagree?

Helpful criticisms (or violent reactions [:(]) are welcome [:)]

Thanks

This one is a visual about Grisha, but this is one monster scale practice. Out of this world!!!




Elie -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 5:04:00)

well talking on my behalf [:)]
actually I simply can't play picado without extending the pinky
I've seen some players without that habit mentioning todd or grisha ... but I simply can't .. when I start a fast scale my pinky just start to extend automatically and I can't control it .
so lol I don't agree/disagree with you , I think you should choose the better ( faster ) way for you and practice it .
I don't know what do you mean by "Grisha's push type-sort of classical"
but I guess Paco & Grisha have similar picado sound .
cheers



ToddK -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 6:45:45)

Picado threads always give me a headache.[8D]



NormanKliman -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 6:53:53)

quote:

...picado like Paco's (with extending pinky)


Does he still do it that way or is that something you saw on an old video?



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 7:49:30)

Paco can play it with or without extending the pinky. lol. but the attack is still different from Grisha's



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 7:51:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkElieDraven
well talking on my behalf [:)]
actually I simply can't play picado without extending the pinky
I've seen some players without that habit mentioning todd or grisha ... but I simply can't .. when I start a fast scale my pinky just start to extend automatically and I can't control it .



Interesting. My hand is like Grisha's way of playing picado but i'm doing what Paco does....lol...is that a bad thing? i mean, i'm countering the very natural tendency of my fingers.



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 7:52:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Picado threads always give me a headache.[8D]


Todd. Me too. I think the headache is due to the fact we are always so confused as to how to approach picado technique. Effectively and efficiently. Our mind just goes kaput when all scientific, meta-physical, elemental, psychological esoteric stuff, cram into our heads and make us say.....What the h*ll am i gonna do!?!



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 11:18:42)

quote:

Picado threads always give me a headache.


This is true but like you Todd I still find myself participating in them!

My experience is that all the threads, all the comments and advice make me more conscious of the details of my own finger movements and help me to find the way that works best for me.
I think if you look at many players with very good picado they all do it slightly differently. I think I have to find my own way and slowly I am.
For me getting good picado seems to be a long process of exploration and refinement of various elements- inspired by nightmare picado threads- thanks everyone for your comments, they're helping.

To answer the thread question
My tendancy is to have the E extended but I am exploring not doing that. This doesn't mean having it curled up either but rather as relaxed as possible and moving in sympathy with the M.
I think holding tension in E and the hand in general can be due to-
-Not completely releasing all the tension from I after it's played.
-Having the hand in a bad position so that I and M don't fall naturally onto the string.

This is also true in my arpegio where this excess tension slows me down.



Elie -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 11:25:51)

quote:

My hand is like Grisha's way of playing picado but i'm doing what Paco does....lol...is that a bad thing?

no because each one of us has different hands and different technique skills
I'm sure if you asked the foro members to make short videos showing their right hands doing fast picado scales, each one of them will do it differently .
ex. look at paco and vicente their picados are totally different but so fast and strong because they're trained picado differently maybe but they kept the core of picado which is to keep the movements as small as possible

btw look at Manolo Sanlúcar's picado .. he keeps his hand unbelievable releaxed



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 20:20:44)

in the end you want it to feel natural so the focus is the music, not the guitar or technique getting in the way. If you can deliberately change you technique from one way to another, chances are one of the two ways is NOT natural because you have to think about doing it "that way" which ever it is. I would figure out which one it is, and do away with it and stick with what feels good and natural. If neither feels natural, then you need to pick one and stop wasting time experimenting so much.

Ricardo



chester -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 21:14:20)

The extended pinky is not a deliberate thing. It's a consequence of your hand tensing up in order to play those super fast notes.

One of my old teachers (Jorge Caballero) was always on my case regarding the extended pinky. He said it was the pinky trying to run away from your hand because of all the tension.

I agree with Ricardo that in performance you gotta do what you gotta do but the extended pinky shouldn't be a goal.

Picado is not magic--all you're doing is moving two fingers alternately. Of course if you want to play very fast you need to eliminate excess movement of the fingers. My advice is to keep it slow until your hand feels comfortable and then start pushing. But always know what is too fast.



Elie -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Dec. 31 2010 21:18:44)

quote:


The extended pinky is not a deliberate thing. It's a consequence of your hand tensing up in order to play those super fast notes.

well said !!



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 1 2011 5:31:25)

thanks for all the generous responses! :)



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 1 2011 10:55:10)

As has been poiinted out correctly, an extended pinky is on principle being contra productive.

The initial problem with picado seems to be missing ( physiological ) insight and a problem of patience in the same time.

Understandably, praticioners involuntarily presuppose that in order to gain speed alternating fingers should start returning to idle before the other finger hits the string.

It´s what I consider the hares way. A way that won´t ever serve technique efficiently and seamlessly.
There are players to be seen who through tremendous "athletics" manage to defeat technical detours like extended passive fingers or untimely alternation; yet they could had spared themselves strain and struggle. ( Talk about yours truely for decades [:(] )

Anyway, eventhough possibly appearing paradox at first, the hedgehogs way for slow-motion picado exercise means returning to idle yet when the other finger has arrived on the string as well, and not before.

Only this way will lead to suspension of conflicting antagonists / to symmetrical, hence even alternation; and finally to seamless speed.
-

For me, this and a couple more so severe "hare misconceptions", led to starting over basics from scratch alltogether.

An incredibly challenging thing to do, especially if wrong techniques and their detouring efforts had been neuronally implanted over much too many years; but definitly worth the extreme patience needed to overcome the culprit for who in the end appreciates strainless, ergonomical playing.
( There is still another year or so of renewing basics left before me, but there is being light at the end of the tunnel already, and I gradually start feeling the actual art of the matter, which is a true delight for a guitar-Ulysses who once unfortunately started out as an autodidact.)

From there, the picado problem discussed in this thread is one of the reasons why I think it priceless for a beginner to start out with a teacher who, more valuable than unconscious talent, provided scientifical background on ergonomics.
As it seems to me, a rare didactical phenomenon to date, yet gradually increasing through the insights of didactical staff like of Prof. Iznaola or Prof. Chen, whose detailed knowledge despite of being teachers for classical guitar can be extremely useful for guitanos as well.
-

Ergonomics besides are basically the same for everyone, except of a very few individuals with unusual anatomy.
So, if you see someone performing impressively despite muscular / neuronal conflicts, it only means that he managed to overcome what shouldn´t be in the way in the first place.

It is much better to be raising meticulous, practical attention at the very beginning ( and with that patience, indeed ), but then spare oneself unspeakable extra efforts in the long run.

Once I wittnessed someone becoming a virtuouse player after only 1,5 years. A prodigy.
Guess he accidentally got the right premisse from start.
-

Besides: Saw a serial documentary this week about sheer incredible prodigies.
Things seem to prove one other time:
It isn´t really so much about what you are born with, but about absorbing / upgrowing. Grasping seems the key.

People can be performing so drastically differently, despite basically same physics; be it brain or limbs.

Ruphus



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 1 2011 11:08:10)

Ruphus, my experience is similar to yours.

I spent 8 years doing it all wrong and pushing through counter-productive neuromuscular patterns and have spent the last two going back to basics (not for the first time!) but this time with better knowledge, this forum has been a great help)

I have found the "hare's" way got me so far and then I got stuck, I have had to go back to learn the "hedgehog" way.



Ruphus -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 1 2011 18:50:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

Ruphus, my experience is similar to yours.

I spent 8 years doing it all wrong and pushing through counter-productive neuromuscular patterns and have spent the last two going back to basics (not for the first time!) but this time with better knowledge, this forum has been a great help)

I have found the "hare's" way got me so far and then I got stuck, I have had to go back to learn the "hedgehog" way.


Hi Orson,

The funny thing in my case is that the more insight on ergonomics gathered, the more I realize / remember to initially have been on a useful way. The tortous path yet having started out, after a couple years when I saw Andres Segovia on German TV for the first time.
Noticing his bent wrist, it appeared only plausible to me that I had to imitate the master in order to achieve expertly right-hand technique.
So, went from natural posture and planting to completely counter-productive, from then on wondering why I would become rather worse from year to year.

With a bent wrist / aligning the row of fingertips parallel to the strings, hence producing a 90° attack angle, the uneven length of fingers, especially of the m throws you into a practical contradiction, followed by inherently terrible "work around" in the way of awkward and blocking extensor employment.

Whereas, in my observation with ergonomical playing, extensors other than for rasgueados ideally should be at suspense - almost- entirely.


What I ended up with after many years, sadly was some kind of "faked savvy" ( for which me partially even received praise from conservatory graduates; though they mainly admired my musical improvisation ability ), a "savvy" however that contained huge neurological and physical waste. Superfluous and exhausting mastery of athletic work-around, which if only invested into ergonomical playing instead would have had me play cricles around myself.

I think the general advice today to everyone, including highly advanced fellow guitarists should be:
If it strains, suggest on principle that there is something wrong. - If even just a minute extra contraction, yet easily effective enough as chock.

Being constantly prepared for going back, analysing what is being the cause and building up from there / only speeding up provided tensionless execution, to me seems the omni formula to firmly stick to ( whenever possible ).

And yet when having arrived in cockaigne of efficiency, the protagonist / antagonist-battle bogey might still be waylaying on you. Waiting for the rashing moment that you fail to realize how you are speeding up, taking a sneaked in dysfunctional neuro.exe with you. Waiting for you to implement the obstacle into your routine.
( Loving to sit on your shoulder while you e.g. unsuspectingly practise before TV. [;)] )

I do not think that popular artists who appear to becoming less seamless later in their career to be all prone to physical aging, or to inevitably be symptomatic for less rehearsal.
As rather likely, I tend to suspecting blockage-bogey to have landed his dreaded coup.
Whispering into millions of ears: "Yeah, mighty fine now. Just don´t be so limp, Jango, speed it up already; force it through!"
( Caution: Garlic or silvery tuning forks in the guitar case might not be of help. [8D] )

Ruphus



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 5:07:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Being constantly prepared for going back, analysing what is being the cause and building up from there / only speeding up provided tensionless execution, to me seems the omni formula to firmly stick to ( whenever possible ).



I had quite the tenacity before of being such a bigot with my poor, stubborn, egotistical practice habits. One must remember that even the most inherent of musical geniuses, should come back and review the basics of simple movement and thought. It would be like checking the nuts and bolts of a building's foundation every now and then. Going back to the "hedgehog" way of undoing and re-learning, or mantaining/correcting of certain habits, thoughts and movements however sure you are that you THINK it suffices not to do otherwise, is a painful mistake. Growing as an artist is surprisingly a journey of humility, being constantly aware that building and re-building your technique or musicianship is the key to success, seems to take the pride and ego from one person's soul.



gbv1158 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 8:00:01)

One of the biggest advice I often get from friends who studied at the conservatory is to avoid tension in the right hand, especially in picado because the risk is the opposite goal : no control of the speed.
For this reason it is right to refer to the initial setting when everything runs slow. So it 's true, and it has worked for me, the speed must be reached with the natural time each one needs (normally years and not months), avoiding unnecessary tensions in the fingers not involved in picado, and therefore in pinky.
ciao
Giambattista



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 13:57:56)

quote:

One of the biggest advice I often get from friends who studied at the conservatory is to avoid tension in the right hand, especially in picado


So the guitarists in conservatory are doing the best picado nowadays???[;)][:D]

The general advice here seems to make sense and be logical, but be careful making a list of players that you THINK have too much tension based on what you are SEEING them do (meaning a list of specific players is implied by the commments about what the pinky is doing when picado is happening).

Basically saying players like PDL, Cepero, Tomatito, Vicente, (Sabicas?), etc etc, have been doing something wrong and unhealthy all these years, muscling through it as described above and limiting themselves speedwise and preparing themselves for future injury, well, it is making A LOT of assumptions. I am willing to start over even myself if it could be that there came along a player with more speed and fuerza and flamenco sound in their playing that claims to have done this "ergonomic" thing....but it would be time that tells if in the end the hands stayed in shape BETTER then the players above.

On paper it would be logical, but so far I have not heard a player that uses ZERO muscle in their picado that has speed AND sounds flamenco, with fuerza. That is part of the expression IMO, and what separates picado from CLASSICAL rest stroke. I admit it MAY be true, all the maestros have been hurting themselves to make such a sound and expression, but if it is true that we can start over and get more speed and still have that sound, then we need to see it done.

Ricardo



gbv1158 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 14:31:14)

quote:

but so far I have not heard a player that uses ZERO muscle in their picado that has speed AND sounds flamenco,


as a matter of fact, I didn't mentioned "muscle" or "fuerza" talking about the wrigt hand; I was referred to the "tension", meaning to avoid a bad distribution of the "fuerza" in all the hand instead to concentrate it on the fingers involved in picado; as you know the problem was the pinky.

ciao



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 15:03:43)

quote:

as a matter of fact, I didn't mentioned "muscle" or "fuerza" talking about the wrigt hand;


i was refering to Ruphus' comments regarding doing "athletics" to over come obstacles when developing speed. Meaning despite tensions (pinky or other) players push themselves hard to achieve speed. The resultant sound of these kind of players has a "fuerza" that more relaxed LOOKING players don't seem to have, but I am open to the idea that it can be done. Examples???

This guy at 2:43 I would assume, as per this thread, is using TOO much tension in his hand for picado...and perhaps his technique in general? But show me the relaxed handed player doing better than this with the same "muscular" sound and delivery:



jg7238 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 15:33:45)

Awesome player.



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 16:08:32)

quote:

This guy at 2:43 I would assume, as per this thread, is using TOO much tension in his hand for picado...and perhaps his technique in general? But show me the relaxed handed player doing better than this with the same "muscular" sound and delivery:


Justo Fernandez is great. He's one of the players whose right hand I look at for inspiration and think his hand is relaxed, well he is compared to mine!

I think some tension in the hand is ok and maybe it is needed to get the right tone. But I know I have too much in mine, more than El Tuto at 2.43 and more than I need to get tone. This extra tension is slowing me down.

For me it has a lot to do with the positon my E finger ends up in. For the last month I have been doing picado and arppegio execises with my E and A finger held (lightly) together with a rubber band. This stops E extending and has an immediate effect- I play faster with more control, better tone and my hand feels much less stressed- it is easier to play. So I know for a fact that my E finger extending in arpeggio and picado is an obstacle for me. It may not be the tension per se but the position, however in order to stop E extending (without being held by a band) I've got to get rid of some of this excess tension.

This is just my experience, I don't advocate others' tying fingers together. It could cause damage, I am a qualified injury therapist so I know if I am or not.



CarloJuan -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 16:19:40)

Well said Maestro Ricardo. I hope we may resolve this ergonomic thing. It's a modern way of thinking due the fact that technology has given us more scientific evidences to back up our theories in playing.

But i hope that every one of us finds his way to our own approaches in technique. I would surmise that the Old Greats didn't give the slightest amount of thought to observe didactically the proper way to do picado. THEY JUST DID.

Imagine PDL thinking: okay so...plant push then release...hmmm have to file my nails, have a squeak and a buzz,....plant push release, middle joint should bend while anular and pinky move sympathetically..lol

But as for me, i can't help but do my homework. Sometimes i overthink and that's bad. I should keep it simple........ or simplify the complex. whatever

Now i'm overthinking, doh [:D]



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 16:25:15)

quote:

I would surmise that the Old Greats didn't give the slightest amount of thought to observe didactically the proper way to do picado. THEY JUST DID.


That may be true but I also know that the Caño Roto players who all have killer picado (and everything else) do think about their technique and spend hours doing technical exercises.

'Just doing it' hasn't worked for me I wish it had! I don't think there is one 'proper way' but since really being conscious of technique and exercises I am undeniably improving. That means I can focus on and enjoy music and accompaniment rather than struggling with the guitar. For example in the past I never dared used picado when accompanying dance because it wasn't solid rhythmically or tonally but lately I am beginning to use it.



gbv1158 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 16:32:41)

J. Fernandez is really great! .... truly, I belive he is a good example of the right tension in the right hand.



Ricardo -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 17:05:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gbv1158

J. Fernandez is really great! .... truly, I belive he is a good example of the right tension in the right hand.


So then if he DOESN"T have too much tension, then I am not understanding what Ruphus is on about...nor the pinky thing since tuto is curling it up quite tight.....

another example of a muscular picado:


And over the years he did not become a slouch it seems:



orsonw -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 17:29:11)

quote:

So then if he DOESN"T have too much tension, then I am not understanding what Ruphus is on about...nor the pinky thing since tuto is curling it up quite tight.....


I think the point is that it is possible for a (student) player to have too much tension in the right hand.

Playing with less tension can still have a strong attack because it's only the lack of relaxation after a stroke that is the issue (for the next finger). If muscles are trying to flex and extend a finger at the same time there's a problem. That tension might visibly manifest itself in different players in different ways e.g. curled/ extended E finger. And to confuse things one player with good technique and one with bad may even have the E finger in a similar position.

I think we each have to establish for ourselves what is too much tension and what is the best way to have our right hand. I think for some people excessive tension is never an issue but for others including myself it is. In my case it is much more of an issue in arppegio than picado.

Was excessive right hand tension ever a problem for you Ricardo (or anyone else)? If so how did you overcome it?



gbv1158 -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 17:44:00)

quote:

then I am not understanding what Ruphus is on about...nor the pinky thing since tuto is curling it up quite tight.....


Ricardo,
of course I was talking based on my VERY LITTLE experience and about advices from friends, without claiming to be right, I certainly do not dare consider myself an expert guitarist;I only hope to have been clear that in MY little experince I play trying to well balance the "fuerza" in the right hand....that doesn't mean I'am doing it right... I only hope so!
.........so I am glad of your's detailed specifications.



ciao
Giambattista



Doitsujin -> RE: Picado attack, do you really need to choose only ONE? (Jan. 2 2011 20:08:53)

quote:

This guy at 2:43 I would assume, as per this thread, is using TOO much tension in his hand for picado...and perhaps his technique in general? But show me the relaxed handed player doing better than this with the same "muscular" sound and delivery:


Man, this guys playing kicks ass... Thats demotivating... I´ll never get such an awesome picado. And if I would get it..and dont parctice it just 1 week it would be gone.. Damn it.



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