RE: Making a living out of Music (Full Version)

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Reinhardt -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 3 2010 21:57:58)

Thanks alot for your deep post Ricardo.

I already made my Decision a week ago to leave my job and go fulltime into music, I just wanted to hear some peoples perspectives on this topic and I know it will be a tough road but I really want to take a shot at it.

This type of style Flamenco, fusion and spanish flavour is very unfamiliar with the people around here so all this is new to most of them and getting very good responses from the people. You guys should consider playing gigs here, i think you will do very well :)

As for 8 hours practice rodrigo y gabriela and jessie cook styles a day, I will be doing alot of theory to though ^_^

Thanks again
Reinhardt



Reinhardt -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 3 2010 22:06:56)

Hey @Rugboots thats great news man!!!! Yea i live in george and play alot in Wildernis and we are going to play alot of future gigs in Knysna! Busking is really good fun and practice and at the same time making some really good tips! and meet great people ofcourse! Would be great to meet you man! Never met a flamenco artist in my live or any other style that i play.
We should definatly meet up or come to one of my gigs!
You can add me on Facebook
Reinhardt Buhr
And my cell no. is 072 295 7737



Patrick -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 9:10:55)

quote:

My conclusion is that we ultimately are called to do what we are best at... make use of the talents and gifts we were born with.. and make best use of these for the benefit of all.


I think I know what you are saying, but I don't fully agree. There have been numerous threads about talent and lack thereof. I am not a proponent of "he has talent" mentality. No....what he or she most likely did was bust their butts to get where they are. Talent, Gift, or whatever” is way overrated.

I am in one of the toughest occupations to succeed in (investment advisory). In the first year of business about 80 to 90 percent fail. It takes on average three to five years to build a large enough practice to survive on. When I entered the field (almost 30 years ago), I had people all day long telling me I was crazy and would fail. When I entered the industry I was totally clueless. What I did was trust myself, and oh by the way, worked 70 to 80 hours a week for years. Am I loaded? Far from it, but I am happy and that’s the most important thing. Now I am in the office only about 30 hours a week and enjoy life.

My youngest daughter is another example. She is not overly “talented or gifted” per say in any one area. She is a product of a public education. She even attended a junior college for the first two years of her undergrad work, and then finished up her degree at a local public college.

What she had was a burning desire to be an MD. For years that’s all she wanted to be. She busted her butt and made her own luck. She has been trying to get into med school for three years. Just a few weeks ago she was accepted into one of the most prestigious med schools on the US West Coast.

I have seen a lot of people with what most would say is a “gift or talent”, never succeed in anything. Was it a lack of talent? No it was a lack of motivation pure and simple. How bad do they want it? It ain’t what you got, it’s what you do with what you got!



Escribano -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 9:15:29)

quote:

I have seen a lot of people with what most would say is a “gift or talent”, never succeed in anything. Was it a lack of talent? No it was a lack of motivation pure and simple. How bad do they want it? It ain’t what you got, it’s what you do with what you got!


Yep, I would love to make documentaries or a movie but I turned out to be good enough at what I do to get a well paid job at Microsoft and they won't let me go a second time; though I might just go do it anyway [;)] Live for the moment... but don't be rash.



Patrick -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 9:49:03)

Here’s another one:

A friend of mine is one of the top ranked tournament bass fishermen in the US. When we think of fishing for a living, visions of leisurely setting in a boat all day long looks pretty enticing. Well trust me it isn’t remotely close to that. Making a living from tournament bass fishing is a bit like winning the lottery (only harder).

His name is Jay Yelas and I have known him sense he was a kid. From about the age of 15 or so, all he ever wanted to do was fish for a living. I am telling you he had more burn and desire than anyone I have ever seen. He didn’t have anymore “talent or gifts” than the next guy. He wasn’t born with an innate ability to catch fish. In fact, I don’t think anyone is. Jay worked harder than anyone I know at learning all the little nuances about how to catch a bass. For several years he lived out of his van, driving from tournament to tournament. He had to win enough money from the one he was at, to get to the next one. Talk about drive and motivation.

Long story short, Jay is now at the top of his field. In the US, every bass fisherman knows who he is. He has won several of the biggest tournaments in the US, earning him millions.

http://www.fishingworld.com/pro-jayyelas/


It’s amazing how the harder we work, the luckier we get!



michel -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 10:02:35)

quote:

Live for the moment... but don't be rash.

exactly, there is a possible solution for everyone of us i think like fiftyfifty office job/music or begining with little gigs in restaurants, or teaching. don't have the right vocabulary to express myself. what i'd like to say it's possible to elaborate your musician-strategy regarding the parameters of your real life and see what's happening, building up things in relationship with the personal context, a kind of progressive transition to become a professional artist. but maybe some of us need a rupture and want to begin a new life from one minute to the other. [:)]



Ron.M -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 10:43:37)

quote:

Live for the moment... but don't be rash.


Yeah...I think the same sorta way...

You've got to be "sensible" but "extreme" at the same time.[:D]


You are never gonna become ANY sort of commercial success as a guitarist unless you have the THIRST for that success.

Day job and playing a couple of nights a week means you can enjoy playing without having to depend upon it.

But you'll still be doing it in 20 years time..

Which is great...because you've got your life in balance.

But don't expect to be "discovered" or anything much to happen.

Depends what you are in the game for...

The older you get the less choices you have, since there are less chances to start over again.

I have to agree entirely with Pat that anybody I've ever known who has really made it has had a one track mind and wouldn't be put off or prepared to compromise despite other's advice or been put off by other's derogatory or scathing comments.

JM is a good example.

The Beatles didn't make such an impact by trying to be a better copy of Elvis than the man was himself....all the other guys were busy trying that....

cheers

Ron



XXX -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 11:51:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
JM is a good example.


Well [:D] i seem to like those arguable topics, but without picking on personalities, more using him as an example, i would say i dont know what made JM one of the most famous guitarrists. But im sure its not his "stamina" because if that alone was enough others would have made the same success. Probably he was in the right place (England?) at the right time, back then when flamenco was starting becoming popular. He could grow in peoples minds before others did, he could establish himself.

If anything i think it shows that, as in ANY business, you always need some luck. You need some sponsor, somebody who says he supports you (for example to publish books in large numbers).

About talent: my definition of it is being able to learn a thing quick or being able to develop a skill very far.



Ron.M -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 12:04:54)

quote:

About talent: my definition of it is being able to learn a thing quick or being able to develop a skill very far.


Commercial talent is just about being able to sell that to others..[;)]

cheers,

Ron



cathulu -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 4 2010 15:42:16)

This thread is a wish list! Where are the facts? ToddK says he thinks you can make a living in music, but having been there, he is trying to be a medical stenographer or something like that. Sorry if I have got the career or facts slightly distorted.

So, where does one get the money in music? Lets see some realistic percentage breakdowns.

Guitar lessons = ??
CD sales = ??
Gigs = ??
Soundtrack work = ??
Producing work = ??
Odd jobs = ???
Other???

Look at this post... http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=113539&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#113539

PS Juan is a hard working musician, got to grant him that, he tours where others dare not - like Northern Canada. Although I think he sold himself out playing in Iran recently, that is too sad being used to give the Iran regime some additional legitimacy. He should have said NO.



XXX -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 5 2010 6:38:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

About talent: my definition of it is being able to learn a thing quick or being able to develop a skill very far.


Commercial talent is just about being able to sell that to others..[;)]


Touché [:)].
(in germany salesmen of fish and sausages are famous for being able to scream very loud, which i think makes them good salesmen)



Ron.M -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 5 2010 6:50:06)

quote:

(in germany salesmen of fish and sausages are famous for being able to scream very loud, which i think makes them good salesmen)


[:D][:D][:D][:D]

In Scotland in the old days, to be a Coalman (Coal Merchant) you needed the same talent of being able to make yourself heard 4 streets away.
Since you can't shout the consonant (C), they had various cries, the most popular being YAH-OOOOH-EHHHHL

If you were standing next to one you'd jump out your skin as it was louder than the horn on the lorry. [:D]

cheers,

Ron



Stoney -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 5 2010 7:39:33)

quote:

We get about 3 gigs average a week and make about $80 equal to about SA R600


I wanted to jump on this thread but my password was all messed up. I'm back now.

So three gigs and $80 split between 2 guys? And you have to ask if you can or should go pro at this point? I think you have already answered your own question.

However, if that isn't enough for you, I would suggest jumping on youtube and making a honest comparison of what you do compared to what others are doing.

You mention a guitarist named John Clarke. Without going into a critique of his playing, do you think he is making a living doing music? I'd guess not. He has recorded a CD or two, sells tabs to his own compositions on line, does gigs in parks where absolutely NO ONE is paying any bloody attention at all and has worked his butt off to build a bit of an on-line following in order to parlay that into a bit of a second income. (I'm guessing) Either that or he is young, single, lives with mom and pays no bills.

Next issue, the style of music you play. Hopefully it is obvious to you that you do not play Flamenco by any means so there is little or no chance to work in a flamenco dance studio and honestly, guitar lessons are more or less out as there are probably hundreds of other guys who know as much or more who have those teaching gigs covered.

Build your music career bit by bit, go pro in 10 years. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. Don't ruin your life chasing a dream.

On the other hand, look up one of Jason McGuire's vids on youtube. If you are playing on that level I retract all the above.

Stoney



Estevan -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 5 2010 12:48:15)

quote:

Next issue, the style of music you play. Hopefully it is obvious to you that you do not play Flamenco by any means so there is little or no chance to work in a flamenco dance studio

But he never mentioned playing in a flamenco dance studio - he talked about playing gigs, and having got a good response so far. Musical fashions are different in different places so maybe in SA the timing is right to have a go at this kind of thing. I hope so.

Good luck with your venture, Reinhardt!



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2010 14:23:29)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:56:12



Reinhardt -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 6 2010 12:19:58)

Stoney thanks for your reply but a few things im not clear on.
Firstly
John Clarke has 9,363,693 views on a few of his uploaded songs on youtube and alot of people is buying his tabs plus cd's online
He does alot of gigs in San fransisco and busk around to.
Not everybody pays attention to buskers on the streets.
And he gives lessons.
So if you say he is not making a living out of music(or guessing) then I dont know.
Then im far far far off. . .
and also didnt understand
quote:

So three gigs and $80 split between 2 guys? And you have to ask if you can or should go pro at this point? I think you have already answered your own question.

Dont know what question i answered sorry. :-/

But I already made my decision and hope to make it. But im definatly not better that john clarke, maybe in a different way cuz we are a due band.



Escribano -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 6 2010 13:22:55)

quote:

"you can do and be whatever you want"


But one can try to do and be whatever one wants... that is the flavour of the discussion, no? I have no problem with the flying, just the crashing [;)]



Ricardo -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 6 2010 14:56:30)

Reinhardt, I don't want to come of snobbish or anything, but just so you know this forum has many flamenco aficionados, and most of the the guys you talk about are NOT flamenco players. The guy Clarke as discussed I just watched is pretty cheesy....he could not fill in any flamenco gigs I have around here. Perhaps Stoney was trying to say it would be a tough market for someone that plays at his level which is kind of low....relative to flamenco professionals. Number of views on youtube means squat. The assumption of many here is that it is hard to make it in FLAMENCO for a living, not just music in general I think, because highly competative level of playing coupled with low income....



Rain -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 6 2010 17:19:28)

He is making music that many people love , it may not be very complicated but who says music needs to be complicated to be good. I for one liked the the piece "The most Evolved" But than again I like people who are creative and can compose much more than trained monkey's who can play a Paco or Sabicas piece. I myself am a trained monkey who can play classical guitar, my interest in improv has lead me to the flamenco guitar.

To think for one moment Entre dos Aguas is different from what John Clarke is doing is absurd, the only thing is John clarke or Ottmar Liebert, and Jesse Cooke keep rewriting Entres Dos Aguas.



Reinhardt -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 7 2010 2:56:30)

I never mentioned that I play Flamenco, I play a few flavoured flamenco fusion stuff and I love the art of flamenco but thats not what I do.
And I dont want to compare my style to flamenco or the style of other people I play. Ricardo it is as if you say im in the wrong place to discuss this ? Well if I am then i would just like to thank the people that understood and gave some good feedback on the topic.



abc123 -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 7 2010 5:31:02)

quote:

Number of views on youtube means squat.


Ricardo sweetheart no wonder you're struggling career wise, you need to learn about web 2.0 and emerging music business models. Go read Techdirt

Reinhardt, you got it man, of course you can make a living at music! Tons of people do. You know how many guitarists are millionaires? You just gotta play something real, and don't give up just cause a bunch of other people did.

It's for those who want it bad enough, baby. The rest just make excuses



kozz -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 7 2010 5:49:34)

quote:

quote:

Number of views on youtube means squat.



Ricardo sweetheart no wonder you're struggling career wise, you need to learn about web 2.0 and emerging music business models. Go read Techdirt

Reinhardt, you got it man, of course you can make a living at music! Tons of people do. You know how many guitarists are millionaires? You just gotta play something real, and don't give up just cause a bunch of other people did.

It's for those who want it bad enough, baby. The rest just make excuses



Hello there!
Straight to business within 6 minutes of joining. [8|]

@Reinhardt
Offcourse you can make a living out of music, but it all depends on what your living standards are, if you have a mortgage, how much energy you want to put in it, if doesnt matter what you play etc.
You are still young, so why not give it a shot...the best thing to make a living out of music, IMO, is doin wedding ceremonies...everything is accepted apart from purists music...so go for it



Ron.M -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 7 2010 10:46:55)

quote:

Ricardo sweetheart


Oooooh!

[sm=kiss.gif][sm=kiss.gif]

Ricardo is a happily married man I'll have you know!

(You naughty boy you!...)


(Oh..BTW it is against Forum rules to have 2 identities. Please scrub one.)

cheers,

Ron



Stoney -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 6:25:27)

I agree completely that the number of hits is totally irrelevant to making a buck. I've even visited John Clarke's vids about 10 times. The only way he would make a buck off of me is if he accepts $5 to STOP PLAYING. I'm sure that it makes him feel like a star. Good for him.

Remember what Andy Warhol said - in the future everyone will be famous for 15 minutes.

The question that you answered is the question you posed. Can you make a living playing music? The answer in this case is no. Why? Well, just look at how much money you are making at this point. It is not entry level sufficient. Period.

If the minimum wage in your country is much much more than what you are making then how do you ever expect to catch up?

I mentioned the flamenco dance class because it is off the table. Alot of guys here make a supplimentary income by working with dance classes. Same with lessons.

Again, not to be a stick in the mud but it seems that the route that has a better chance of having long term success (cause the "making it" comment just puts you in rock star dream land - you've got a better chance of being struck by lightning) is to work a day job, invest some of your money in recording equiptment, etc. spend your time building a web presence, promote, gig and pray.

On a side note, you might want to consider actually learning REAL flamenco guitar so you can gig as a soloist and add a bit more authentic feel to your band project.

If I'm lying, I'm dyin.

Stoney



Florian -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 6:56:26)

Reinhardt good luck man, i belive you can, do whatever you do , as long as you love it and do it from the heart and would do it even for free i belive you can acctualy be succesfull at it....and even get to a point where you can make a living out of it ...or perhaps even surrpas it

will you make enough money ?? i dont know perhaps, perhaps less at the start , but it will get better... there is plenty of oportunity , for you, weddings, corperate events, private partyes, restaurants , cafes, birthdays, engagements partyes, art galery openings, xmas parties...etc ( just have to get organised with getting your name out there ) perhaps its an amazing oportunity for you in South Africa since you dont have much competition..

so yes, i belive you can do it and perhaps even more so due to the fact that you are in Souh Africa... i wish you all the succes in the world amigo [;)]

if this is what you love!! ... if you are smart enough with your oportunities and organised enough and professional...you will be succesfull...however you meassure that

it wont be eazy at times but then we go back to my point at the start..."if you love it enough that you would even risk starving for it"

most important ingrediant, is not, weather or not its flamenco or the complexity of your compositions or even the level of your playing...most important ingrediant is how much you love it and your determination

theres no guarantees in anything but one think i know for sure is that you wont make it if you dont try [:)]



Stoney -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 10:01:55)

I have absolutely no prob with ALL of Florian's statements and they are all 100% true as long as you realize that the following

quote:

i belive you can acctualy be succesfull at it....and even get to a point where you can make a living out of it ...or perhaps even surrpas it


is an opinion and not a statement of fact or a guarantee.

So, the real question is, are you laying the groundwork for a long term carreer in music or are you rolling the dice and hoping to come up a star.

Whatever your route, good luck. Just keep in mind that TODAY, almost nobody does it the roll of the dice method, especially the record companies. They don't risk a cent on an up and coming artist, the risk is all assumed by the artist. So in the end all the skill set that you would develop via the slow and safe method(promotion, song writing, marketing, organization, your instrument etc. etc.) you are still going to need.

Oh, and that "I'll get a lot better when I only focus on my guitar and play gigs" mentality is only a reality if you DON'T have gigs. So you're actually doing all that promoting, moving equiptment, mannaging crazy musicians etc. etc. not practicing.

No offense man, Devil's advocate here. Murphy's Law. The Law of Averages and Statistics. Many are called, few are chosen.

Stoney



Ron.M -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 10:10:46)

quote:

Many are called, few are chosen.


Great expression Stoney..

That about sums it up IMO too.

Thing that puts the "dice" into the equation is that you don't really have to be that good to be one of the chosen... as real life entertainment industry demonstrates.

cheers,

Ron



Stoney -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 11:55:28)

quote:

Thing that puts the "dice" into the equation is that you don't really have to be that good to be one of the chosen... as real life entertainment industry demonstrates.


Yeah, that's called genetics. If you look poster boy pretty, then by all means jump right into the music business.

One of my favorite bands of all time was the Pogues. I basically bought their album for two reasons. 1 They're Irish. 2. They're butt ugly. So obviously they had to be killer musicians. I was right.

Stoney



Reinhardt -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 8 2010 12:20:50)

quote:

I agree completely that the number of hits is totally irrelevant to making a buck. I've even visited John Clarke's vids about 10 times. The only way he would make a buck off of me is if he accepts $5 to STOP PLAYING. I'm sure that it makes him feel like a star. Good for him.


Ok the number of views is irrelevant but stil alot of people like his music and if you dont like it, I get it i only mentioned i played abit of his style. Its your oponion I dont like Lady GaGa but maybe you like it? so I dont go and tell you that I wil pay her to stop playing(wish i cud)

All in all the money we make of gigs will let me be able to rent a place buy petrol and food. We busy making a cd and im starting to give guitar lessons to people that also helps. For a beginning i think i can do really good and im already busy with it thanks :)

Thanks alot for you reply Florian im definatly going for it and im really seeing good results and responses from the people so far.

I have no desire to become a rockstar or have alot of money, I live on the coast of South Africa and im more than happy playing gigs at places on the beach and just traveling along the coast.

Thanks for all the replies guys,
Much appreciated
Reinhardt



Kate -> RE: Making a living out of Music (Mar. 9 2010 3:27:02)

Having lived with a musician for 26 years I can offer some advice if it helps. There were times when we lived pretty much on the breadline, but it pays to be self sufficient. For example we always bought our cars at auction and my husband used to do all the repairs himself. It saved a fortune. Rehearsal space in London was expensive and hard to come by so we rented some old railway arches and turned them into a rehearsal space, renting them out to other bands. We also had a full sound rig which would be rented out and he also worked doing sound for other bands. Now the sound recording has taken over from playing professionally but he still gets his guitar out and plays, last gig he did was in Saigon for a launch party. I think if you are driven/obsessed then you put your playing before all else and money etc is not an issue. I think some-one posted already that having a partner who works is a bonus. Well that was me :)



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