RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Full Version)

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duende -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 20 2009 3:00:43)

i tryed playing in B (Granaina) and that makes a bit more airy fell to it. More mellow
The por medio makes it more dense



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 20 2009 21:33:51)

So as Deteresa suggested i will uptade a litlle and write whos involved so far in this challenge...if you are not on the list and would like to be involved please let me know..so we have some kind of idea....i had some members who were on the intermediate challenge tread who said they were interested but i just copyed members who said it here that they are in


also if anyone has any questions about anything to do with the challenge/rules or cante... or needs some help ..is welcome to ask here..we realize not everyone gets alot of practice with a singer

Challengers in big lights [:D]

Duende
John O
Stu
Muninn ?
Deteresa
mrMagenta
gj Michelob
Florian
Deniz
srshea
xirdneH_imiJ
Matic
Anders Eliasson
bursche
edguerin
romerito




Panel of judges

Félix de Lola
JasonMcGuire
Ricardo
NormanKliman
Sean
Kate & Harold
Doitsujin



Also dont forghet...in Addition to the panel of Judges scores ...we also put it to a public vote..
Judges vote x2
Public (since we dont know what kind of numbers and experience to expect) x1

I know the scoring system is a litlle more complicated then the past but i think it will offer a good balanced view..its unfair to ignore Public preception...but at the same time theres no point having a panel of judges u identifie as expert judges when they vote will just be overun in the first 10 minutes of public voting who may or may not know about cante..


so under the circumstances i think it makes for fair scoring ..or atleast interesting..wel see , again we will learn from this

Toddk do you wanna be involved ?

Romerito ?


anyone else ?

Btw...like Doit i am getting addicted to all the big writting [:D][:D]



duende -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 20 2009 21:47:44)

nuthin[:)]



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 20 2009 21:49:42)

I dont know what you talking about [8|] u must have imagined it...i am a greate speller [:)]



Ailsa -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 0:18:06)

quote:

i am a greate speller


Indeed you are Flo and I think that proves your point perfectly (there is no 'e' on the end of great [:D])

Your spelling is unique and has certain consistency. You always spell laugh, 'lough', and you always put an 'h' in forget - 'forghet'.

But more importantly language is for communication, and we understand each other, so it's all kuul [;)][:D]



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 0:34:24)

Its how we spell in the hood..[8D][8|]



Ron.M -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 3:13:11)

Hi Flo,

I'd rather not judge in this one, thanks.

I'm not really qualified or experienced in this area, except just to give my vote on the "general" sound of the piece, like anyone else could.

I think the folk who actually accompany and who are not contestants themselves should judge ie..

Jason (& Felix of course)
Ricardo
Sean
Norman
DonS ?

cheers,

Ron



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 3:19:16)

ok , thanks for beeing humble..


u should know that even someone that listens to alot off cante is ok by me...so its up to you...


does anyone else fancy himself in the panel of judges for this ? making his score x2 for this ?



Matic -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 3:42:47)

I'm in.[:)]



Doitsujin -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 4:22:05)

That could become a very interesting challenge.. But if the contestants play the rights chords...the judging will be 100% subjective. Im looking forward to hear all the versions. ;.)
Anyway nice challenge idea.



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 4:32:39)

yes ofcourse it will be subjective.. also besides the right chords theres a few other litlle things that are distinctive of sole por buleria accomp that i would look for if i was judging..but at the end of the day everyone judges according to them


doit are you getting involved ?



Ron.M -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 4:37:43)

Hi Flo,

I've been thinking about it and I feel that a "public" content to the vote would not really be helpful in this particular challenge.

I'd say leave this one to the experienced judges and have the other challenges open to a certain percentage of Public voting....especially on something such as the "Composition" one where public opinion is probably MORE important than the "expert" judges opinion.

At the end of the day, probably Felix's opinion will be the most important.

It would seem totally crazy if someone got the highest score from the guitarists and Felix hated it! [:D][:D]

What do you think?

Just my 3 dollars worth..[;)] (Ahem ...hint, hint..)

cheers,

Ron



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 4:43:51)

Hmm...yes maybe you right...i dont know


but in anycase if we decide to do that we need more then 5 or 6 judges if, make it a bitt more broad...if anyone else has any experience accompanying or listening to alot of cante please dont be shy or modest...we have to judge it somehow( we wont assume that you see yourself as a cante guru [:D])...come foward...even new members are ok...Ideal is 13 - 15 Judges



So i open it to discussion, id like to know what Jason thinks, Felix, Norman ? anyone thats involved in this ...is not just for me to decide or it will be eazyer to make an informed decision once i know how majority of people involved with this feel about it



Ron.M -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:10:07)

quote:

...Ideal is 13 - 15 Judges


!!!!!![:D]

That will be more Judges than contestants probably.


I feel it's not so much about whether you like the guitar style or falseta or not, but more about playing "correct" chords in the right place and at the right time.
(ie following the singer and not leading or making the singer feel "uncomfortable" with regards to chords and compás)

To get constructive feedback and advice, you need experienced Judges on this IMO.

cheers,

Ron



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:14:14)

quote:

That will be more Judges than contestants probably



its early days...i am sure there will be more contestants

quote:

I feel it's not so much about whether you like the guitar style or falseta or not, but more about playing "correct" chords in the right place and at the right time.
(ie following the singer and not leading or making the singer feel "uncomfortable" with regards to chords and compás)

To get constructive feedback and advice, you need experienced Judges on this IMO.


Ofcourse i agree ...thats why we have Felix for expert feedback...but even an expert is subject to own preferences..


I cant do it.[:D]..ever since Ceaushescu i cant let just one person be the only judge ..or even 4...whatever it is it needs to be a balanced view...youl have to kill me before i ever hand all the power to just one guy [:D] thats not suggesting ofcourse that anyone would abuse it...its just a history fear



Doitsujin -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:14:35)

quote:

doit are you getting involved ?


I want to serve as judge. [:)]



Ron.M -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:19:50)

Yeah, but if you had say 12 Contestants and 12 Judges that would give 12X12=144 comments and scores to read!

I doubt if many folk would have the stamina for that!

cheers,

Ron



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:20:32)

quote:

I want to serve as judge.



why are you smilling like that ? u scaring me[&:]....it looks like you have revenge in your mind [:D]



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 5:26:21)

quote:

Yeah, but if you had say 12 Contestants and 12 Judges that would give 12X12=144 comments and scores to read!

I doubt if many folk would have the stamina for that!

cheers,

Ron


I am not sure I know what you mean...also dont forghet to take in account the 2 or 3 contestants that will drop out of the competition half way through and the judge who forghets that he was sopossed to score..

we had about 9 judges for my first challenge....this is not that big of a difference

and besides..what else is there to do ? this is a big deal here at the forum since its the first of its kind....it wont be as crazy as you think...not all judges will write feedback and we still havent yet decided if we do open it to the general voting

it will be ok...imo



Doitsujin -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 21 2009 6:50:15)

quote:


why are you smilling like that ? u scaring me ....it looks like you have revenge in your mind


No, Im serious. I put the skile there because you asked if I want to involve myself. That made me happy.

For the judging you could count the rating of Felix and other experienced people in playing for singing with 100% and the unexperienced with 50% to reduce weird scoring. But when thinking twice...I think nobody want to be degraded to a second quality judge... So... if the judges think about themselves "I have almost no idea what is good and what is bad"... they could give ratings with a closer range between all the contestants. That would also avoid weird judging.



NormanKliman -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 22 2009 0:11:46)

About the judges' experience with and knowledge of the subject, I think this is exactly the same as the other challenges. For the intermediate challenge that I judged a few months ago, I learned the music before listening to the entries. I was glad that I did because it definitely gave me a better understanding of what people were trying to do. I think it would be ideal for all the judges to do the same whenever there's a challenge, but we can't expect that to happen because not everybody has the time (I almost didn't in that intermediate challenge), and the reduced number of available forum members means that at some point there are going to be judges who use only their ears.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but another thing worth considering is that in real life, the accompaniment influences the singer's performance in real time, and that's obviously not going to happen here. I'm not saying the challenge won't work or be interesting, though.

quote:

youl have to kill me before i ever hand all the power to just one guy


Good one, Flo [:)] Seems to be one of our more unfortunate tendencies as human beings, but is it because we want a leader or because we don't trust each other?[:)]



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 22 2009 3:25:22)

quote:

because we want a leader or because we don't trust each other?


mm i dont know lol...is not a matter of trust its a matter of prespective...i am sure one guy is convinced hes doing right as far as he knows but that dosent necesarely mean that he is..

so i trust anyone guy...i just dont trust the ods if hes wrong..


ofcourse now i am reffering to polotics...nothing to do with any of this or anyone here

quote:

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but another thing worth considering is that in real life, the accompaniment influences the singer's performance in real time, and that's obviously not going to happen here. I'm not saying the challenge won't work or be interesting, though.


yes ofcourse i know u right...but its not even about that...its about us paying so much attention to the solea por buleria por cante and researching it so much that our own accompanying gets betters because of it...also pick up different ideas etc..


with a cante challenge we will feel like a full flamenco forum...not just a guitar forum imo...flamenco without cante always feels like just half the story...



Ailsa -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 22 2009 4:58:18)

quote:

Just my 3 dollars worth.. (Ahem ...hint, hint..)


Gosh Ron, is that a really obscure reference to the fact that hardly anybody has contributed to the Foro Prize fund yet? [:D][:D]

C´mon guys put your hands in your pockets......



Florian -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 22 2009 11:02:50)

maybe somenone post the email we should donate to here...i know i forghot where i sent it..and there was talk of it changing ?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 23 2009 0:25:58)

Can I decide on whether to join or not later, or do I just join now and maybe bail out later?
My time is a bit so-so, and I´m away most of September, but I would like to challenge.[;)]



Andy Culpepper -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 23 2009 16:51:20)

quote:

Can I decide on whether to join or not later, or do I just join now and maybe bail out later?
My time is a bit so-so, and I´m away most of September, but I would like to challenge.


I don't know, I would love to have you in this...why don't we just put you down as "in" and you can bailout if you need to. You can always record early and send it in to whoever is taking the entries ahead of time I think.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 23 2009 22:35:35)

Ok, then I´m in.



bursche -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 24 2009 8:21:31)

I'm in too, although I have little accompaniment experience.



edguerin -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 24 2009 8:23:50)

Is there a deadline to be counted in?



bursche -> RE: The Cante accompaniment challenge!! Finally (Jun. 24 2009 9:07:09)

There's one problem: my digital microphone is too slow for monitoring. I have to see if I can actually do the recording.



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