RE: Conde Questions

RE: Conde Questions (Full Version)

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TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:26:42)
Guys, there really is no mystery surrounding the Conde headstocks. They have simply evolved. All heads from all 3 makers were basically the same at one point. Somewhat flat with a shallow half moon cutout. I believe the Gravina and Atocha shops still use the same head. The Felipe shop at some point simply altered theirs to being taller with more pronouned rounded curves and a more pronouned half moon. That's it. They don't make "special heads" for special people. It's just like the head on a Fender strat. They all have the same shape but some are larger than others depending on the year.

Ron.M -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:27:16)
Jim sent me these article scans he was having problems uploading. Number 1: Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Ron.M -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:29:54)
Number 2: Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

DonS -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:32:05)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer quote: Jim, you mean this type of headstock right? Don, Interesting. I see it better on this video at 2.20 (Rear view) I know the older Sobrinos have this style (which I think looks fantastic) but my thought is that they are still being made at Felipe V, but only for the big gun players. Might be the duo at Felipe V make them personally whilst the other head design is their commercial version sold to the wider market and probably out-sourced to other makers. I have an article on Faustino Conde from 1985 which I'll try to upload on a new thread. The guys might find it interesting background. Cheers Nice find jim! Juan Diego has such a nice touch. Funny thing is the tuners he has on that Sobrinos are Gilbert tuners from the US..which are very nice mechanically but sort of doesn't fit aesthetically on an old Sobrinos. Juan loves them though. Come to think about it, Ricardo owns a Sobrinos si? I remeasured my Atocha dimensions compared with Hnos Sanchis 1a and it doesn't match up exactly. The upper bout and lower bouts are a little wider but 660 scale/width at nut 52 and spacing 60mm at saddle are same.

Ron.M -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:32:29)
Number 3: Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 11:40:29)
That was an interesting story. I can only imagine how much of that has now changed to the way things are now between the 3 shops.

DonS -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 12:01:44)
quote: ORIGINAL: TANúñez Guys, there really is no mystery surrounding the Conde headstocks. They have simply evolved. All heads from all 3 makers were basically the same at one point. Somewhat flat with a shallow half moon cutout. I believe the Gravina and Atocha shops still use the same head. The Felipe shop at some point simply altered theirs to being taller with more pronouned rounded curves and a more pronouned half moon. That's it. They don't make "special heads" for special people. It's just like the head on a Fender strat. They all have the same shape but some are larger than others depending on the year. Great article Jim! I think you're right Tom..the Felipe quinto shop were to the first to change it to what it is today. Here is an old pic from the Ramirez shop that a friend sent me awhile back. Can't recall the order L to R but I think Domingo Esteso is on the right of Sr Ramirez (right hand in pocket) and the one standing next to the kid is Santos Hernandez. Can anyone confirm this? Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 12:36:01)
L to R, 3rd guy is Ramirez, not the guy in the suit. 5th, Domingo and 7th, Santos. The little boy is Anders.

Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 14:15:10)
Domingo esteso does not have a dust cloth to cover his clothes, because the guitars he "makes" come from Valencia....[:D][:D][:D][:D]

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 15:05:14)
I can't believe I didn't notice this before but if you look closely at the window, you can see Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. Hmmm Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

DonS -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 15:30:01)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo Domingo esteso does not have a dust cloth to cover his clothes, because the guitars he "makes" come from Valencia....[:D][:D][:D][:D] Damn you're right!!! [:D][:D] instead Domingo should be in the back counting his pesetas! quote: I can't believe I didn't notice this before but if you look closely at the window, you can see Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. Hmmm naw man thats his grandfather Ricardo Sanchis Nacher (got the name from your website) Yeah it does look like a young Anders...weird...he probably has vampire blood Count Anders! or better yet "Conde Anders" en español..i knew there was some connection there somehow but Anders makes all his own guitars hecho a mano [;)]

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 15:32:49)
I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets.

DonS -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 11 2009 15:36:40)
quote: ORIGINAL: TANúñez I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets. good point..I wonder if he became a luthier.. must be in 60s or 70s by now.

Pimientito -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 1:33:54)
quote: I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets. Unlikely...... You know the (true) story of Santos hernandez and the boy apprentices? After Ramirez died, Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso continued to make guitars under the label "widow of Ramirez" for a while. At that time Andres Segovia was playing a Ramirez that had actually been constructed by Santos Hernandez. However Segovia refused to acknowledge Santos Hernandez as the constructor of his guitar and always endorsed Ramirez as the maker which naturally must have annoyed Santos Hernandez a lot. One day Segovia came in to get a repair and Santo Hernandez suggested that he could make Segovia a new guitar with his own label in it. Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft.

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 3:59:08)
quote: Unlikely...... You know the (true) story of Santos hernandez and the boy apprentices? After Ramirez died, Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso continued to make guitars under the label "widow of Ramirez" for a while. At that time Andres Segovia was playing a Ramirez that had actually been constructed by Santos Hernandez. However Segovia refused to acknowledge Santos Hernandez as the constructor of his guitar and always endorsed Ramirez as the maker which naturally must have annoyed Santos Hernandez a lot. One day Segovia came in to get a repair and Santo Hernandez suggested that he could make Segovia a new guitar with his own label in it. Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft. That is very interesting, but how do you know this is the (true) story? If this is a true story, then the moral of this story....Segovia was a fool.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 4:37:12)
Since I am that little boy, I can confirm that its the true story. Man It was great to get thrown out after a year of sweeping. Later that experience helped me get a job in Denmark sweeping in a a Volvo truck workshop. (I like trucks and trailers) I think we have to be greatefull that we get experience in life. [;)]

Pimientito -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 5:49:47)
quote: but how do you know this is the (true) story? Well George Lucas has turned it into a Hollywood script GUITAR WARS starring John Malkovitch as Santos Hernandez. Javier Bardem as Andrés Segovia and Anrnold Schwarzeneggar as Hermann Hauser [:D] I haven't got the documentation to hand right now. Its at home but this is the story that I am led to believe. I'll post it when I get back to Granada tomorrow....but basically Segovia literally drove Santos Hernandez mad.

Taranto -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 6:12:12)
quote: I gotta track down that little boy. He probably knows some of Santos' secrets. There is no secret and better guitars than Santos are being made all over the world.

jshelton5040 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 6:53:52)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pimientito Instead ( and rather insensitively) Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. Segovia finally returns to Santos Hernandez and says something like "what do you think of my new guitar?" Santos Hernandez of course became furious and evidently had some kind of a nervous breakdown. He ended up moving to a small workshop in the middle of nowhere and employing small boys as assistants to sweep up etc. He became paranoid that they were stealing his secrets. Every year or so he would get rid of them if he thought they were learning his craft. This is meant to be a joke right? Segovia's Hauser had virtually nothing in common with his Manuel Ramirez. The shape, size, depth, bracing pattern, neck attachment and method of assembly are all different from the Ramirez (Santos).

RobJe -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 7:23:27)
Stories are always better if they are only half true! For a more accurate version try http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/inedita.htm Rob

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 8:39:28)
quote: Well George Lucas has turned it into a Hollywood script GUITAR WARS starring John Malkovitch as Santos Hernandez. Javier Bardem as Andrés Segovia and Anrnold Schwarzeneggar as Hermann Hauser This I have to see. I only wish Antonio Banderas would have been casted as Hernandez.

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 8:41:07)
quote: There is no secret and better guitars than Santos are being made all over the world. Ah but there are Taranto. You just don't know about them because they are secret.[;)]

TANúñez -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 8:43:21)
quote: This is meant to be a joke right? Segovia's Hauser had virtually nothing in common with his Manuel Ramirez. The shape, size, depth, bracing pattern, neck attachment and method of assembly are all different from the Ramirez (Santos). John, I can see how this could be true. Segovia probably don't know much about guitar construction and probably didn't care to either. All he went by was sound and feel. So in this regard, perhaps he simply felt the Hauser was better.

at_leo_87 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 12:42:50)
quote: Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar that was basically a copy of the Santos Hernandez. that would piss me off so bad......[:@][:@][:@] what's the deal with segovia? every time i hear a story about him, he's always doing or saying something that would make him look like an absolute jerk/@ss.

jshelton5040 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 12 2009 15:01:05)
quote: ORIGINAL: at_leo_87 quote: Segovia took the (Santos) Ramirez to Hauser and Hauser made a new guitar what's the deal with segovia? every time i hear a story about him, he's always doing or saying something that would make him look like an absolute jerk/@ss. Don't believe everything you read about Segovia. He was the greatest guitarist bar none of this century, the absolute master. I had the good fortune to hear him in concert several times and even talked to him for a few minutes after one concert. He was totally charming. I understand he was a terrific raconteur and didn't hesitate to embelish his stories. Maybe that explains some of the contradictory statements he allegedly made. When someone could play guitar like Maestro Segovia one should probably cut him some slack.

Guest -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 13 2009 1:36:22)
Hola The story of Santos, Segovia and Hauser is recounted by José Ramirez in “En torno de la guitarra”. The original guitar, officially a Manuel Ramirez, (Santos worked in Manuel´s taller) was presented to Segovia in 1913. Hauser presented him with a guitar about the end of the 20s, which Segovia did not like. So Hauser asked to see Segovia´s guitar and measured it thoroughly. However, it appears that he did not make an exact copy, but used it as a basis, and presented Segovia with a new and different guitar every year. It was not until between 1934 and 1937 that he finally came up with a guitar which Segovia liked. Precisely the reverse happened with José Ramirez, who began to present guitars to Segovia to wean him away from the Hauser, but it was not until 1961 that Segovia returned to play a Ramirez. Suerte Sean

Pimientito -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 13 2009 1:39:10)
Here is the Zavaletas version "So, in 1922 when Segovia brought this guitar to Sr. Hernandez for repair, Santos suggested that as he had made the guitar, he should be allowed to replace the Ramirez label with his own. Segovia refused, but did suggest that he could place his label inside the guitar, with the inscription repaired by Santos Hernandez, which is what Santos latter did. In the mid-1930s, Santos offered to build a guitar for Segovia. In 1935, during a visit to Madrid, Segovia invited Santos to come and see a new instrument, that a copyist in Switzerland had just made for him. Not only was it an exact copy of the 1912 Hernandez/Ramirez but, as Segovia waxed lyrical over its virtues, Santos grew increasingly insulted at Segovia's lack of interest in the classical guitar he was building for him, and decided not to show him the instrument. He kept the guitar, and referred to it thereafter as La Inédita, the unpublished guitar." That is pretty much as i described The next part of the story is not published in the Zavaletas web page. I'll post it tonight (from a source other than my memory) Also, I'm not trying to anger any Segovia fans but there is a tendancy to elevate his personality because of his musical acheivements. As a historical figure Segovia is supremely important in the story of the guitar. As a performer and artist he was the maestro of his day. His contribution to the development and use of nylon strings, recognition of the guitar as a classical instrument and addition to the repertoire are of incalculable value. However these great acheivements dont excuse some of his behaviour. As a man he was far from perfect. The Santos Hernandez story is only one of several questionble acts during his career and personal life. There are other incidents with Miguel Llobet, Barrios and Lorca which I found to be very contradictory. I lived next door to La Herradura where Segovia lived in the latter part of his life and met many neighbours who knew and interacted with him on a daily basis. From the things they said about his personality, I would believe that many stories of this kind are likely to be true.

elkabong! -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 13 2009 3:59:35)
Here ya go ! Two 1970's era Condes . A '72 Peghead built by Faustino Conde himself: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270339550246 & a '76 that was either built by Faustino or Mariano : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&item=270339375357 Both of these guitars are GUARANTEED ! to be built by either Faustino or Mariano Conde. Also GUARANTEED ! NOT to be built by the Sanchis' & because I am open to offers; both of these "Original & Actual" Condes are less $$$ than the newer Condes ; built by the Sanchis crew. * Please note: I'm not knocking the Sanchis guitars here BUT they are just that : Sanchis guitars...NOT built by the Condes...* Feel free to contact me at : elkabong@mts.net Cheers; Rudy Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

henrym3483 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 13 2009 5:25:15)
i'll give ya threee fifffy [:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 13 2009 6:41:47)
quote: ORIGINAL: elkabong! Here ya go ! Two 1970's era Condes . A '72 Peghead built by Faustino Conde himself: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270339550246 & a '76 that was either built by Faustino or Mariano : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&item=270339375357 Both of these guitars are GUARANTEED ! to be built by either Faustino or Mariano Conde. Also GUARANTEED ! NOT to be built by the Sanchis' & because I am open to offers; both of these "Original & Actual" Condes are less $$$ than the newer Condes ; built by the Sanchis crew. * Please note: I'm not knocking the Sanchis guitars here BUT they are just that : Sanchis guitars...NOT built by the Condes...* Feel free to contact me at : elkabong@mts.net Cheers; Rudy Damn, still no sale on that 72??? Man, it is too expensive, and now the economy sucks....

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