RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 24 2020 15:57:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ohjelo

Sorry for reviving this thread.

I'm seeling a lot of Condes being marketed as Paco De Lucia Style, but they are really just using a similar Rosette. That being said, do Rosettes affect pricing/quality on these factory guitars?


Paco used about 7 main Condes for recordings and concerts throughout his career, 3 blancas I can ID from the 1960’s, and 4 negras, two from 1975, however all of them would be considered “stock” models from that maker at the time he acquired each one. In that sense, any stock “conde” is a Paco de lucia “model’. So what is left to actually getting close to the same instrument is looks (since sound is Subjective IMO as I taught myself with my own guitars). So Pegs vs machines, back and sides cypress vs rosewood (two were indian, one Brazilian, last one something more exotic like Pau ferro but not sure), headstock (one of his favorite condes had Manuel ramirez style head and pegs) media luna (woo woo! LOL), then overall finish color (at least two of his guitars got a complete red make over at some point, and one guitar got really worked over) rosette (one rosette on his first two negras is flipped on each guitar, two other negras had similar rosettes but slightly different, and his last main axe got the rosette CHANGED lol), tie block (seems minor, but his very first negra had an interesting design not used exactly on any other conde I have seen but it’s inline with their common styles). So with so much variety it’s not to hard to market a “paco style” guitar. Felipe conde has “copied” his last main conde but it looks most like the way it did in 1982. Copy guitars will be priced higher of course for deliberately using these details. Paco also had proper Paco de Lucia models for a few years made by Carrillo, and a handful of special guitars in his collection, but rarely used them. Devoe, Montero, Ramirez, Arcangel (borrowed from a friend?), Alvarez, and his posthumous album has a list of guitars he used by other makers.



Filip -> RE: Conde Questions (Sep. 24 2020 18:53:48)

Paco also played (at least) one concert with a blanca back in 2010, in Belgrade one month before that Moscow concert. It was the third or the fourth concert since the beginning of that tour, the story was that he wanted to change guitars and tried a few (as we can see) but none worked very well and pretty quickly he took his old Conde back.
I don't really know which guitar is that blanca he played though.



https://s3.amazonaws.com/allaboutjazz/media/large/b/4/0/b3c2c3541a9de8aa46003e2940537.jpg



ohjelo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 24 2020 23:12:36)

Thank you, Ricardo. Your feedback is very insightful, as always!



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Sep. 25 2020 2:35:16)

quote:

It was the third or the fourth concert since beginning that tour, the story was that he wanted to change guitars and tried a few (as we can see) but none worked very well and pretty quickly he took his old Conde back.


That was hilarious [:D][:D][:D][:D]. I feel bad for that guitar, man he wasn’t happy, he didn’t even bow, just like, “get the f outta here with this guitar”. It sounded fine, which is the funniest part![:D]



JasonM -> RE: Conde Questions (Sep. 25 2020 4:30:34)

[:D] That was awesome! He was ready to toss it on the floor. It sort of looks like the neck or string spacing might be more narrow compared to his Conde. Maybe that was throwing him off or something, who knows.



Filip -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 25 2020 10:14:28)

Paco played in Rijeka two days before Belgrade. I've heard that they we all supposed to fly to Belgrade, but something came up and Paco had to travel by car on the same day of the concert (it's about 5.5 hours drive, plus waiting to cross the border which could have been an extra hour or easily more) and arrived just before the concert began. The story goes that in a rush Paco put his jacket inside out at the beginning, and after finishing rondeña he went off the stage to change it.

I remember some people from the audience yelled at the beginning of the concert (you can hear it in the video), that was strange and Paco was probably confused. What happened was that when Paco came to stage, a bunch of reporters entered and lined just in front of the stage to take photos as he was starting to play, which pissed off people in the audience so they yelled at the reporters to sit down on the floor. The same happened to me in Budapest, the stage was about 1 meter high from the ground, I was in the center first row and just when Paco started playing alegrias a bunch of reporters came in and I could not see anything...I said **** that, got up from my chair and approached the stage myself with hands and head down on it. I did not pay $100 to watch the crowd while Paco is rocking por alegrias behind.

I also have a story about Paco being late on the concert, it was in Belgrade in 2007. I was hanging out with other group members at the back entrance of the venue hall, when Paco arrived literary five minutes before the concert was supposed to begin, coming with his guitar and straight from the airport because he was supposed to arrive on the same day earlier but his flight was delayed. The concert started one hour late, but it was probably the best that I attended (out of 7). There are videos on yt, not good quality, but we can see Paco in the good mood and enjoying playing.

Catch him here at 18:49-19:10, and also at 23:50




JasonM -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 26 2020 1:39:29)

Always like hearing the Paco stories. Was a good video of the Algerias from Luzia. Reminds me I need to get that transcription book of Luzia if I still can.



Filip -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 26 2020 9:59:20)

quote:

Was a good video of the Algerias from Luzia. Reminds me I need to get that transcription book of Luzia if I still can.


Totally, and that little improvisation at the end of bulerias was amazing.
About the book, I remember looking for it a couple of years ago but could not find it online. I finally got it in a store near Atocha in Madrid.



aw2014 -> RE: Conde Questions (Feb. 5 2021 17:38:18)

I have found this conde label museum
https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/hermanos-conde/labels/



Echi -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 6 2021 9:08:21)

The main Conde played in concert by Paco in his last 20 years is the one Mundo-flamenco had a photo shot of.
By heart I’d say a 1977 with pau-ferro back and sides; bracing is 7 fans + 2: the main pattern used by Conde in these years and till 1985. The maker was not Faustino in person but one of the Conde workers: the guitar was among those sent every year to Paco’s circle by Faustino. Mariano Conde supervised a repair (a crack on the top parallel to the fingerboard).
Originally the guitar was finished with the usual Conde orange nitro varnish but it got ruined and Vicente Carrillo refinished the top of the guitar with clear lacquer at the time when they started their collaboration for the Paco De Lucia guitar series. The rosette of the guitar is made by order by a well known German rosette maker.
A friend of mine was in the circle of musicians - gitanos close to Paco. He told me that guitar was stiff and really nothing special but Paco liked it particularly for the stiff “pulsacion” in concerts. He said Paco had better guitars home (Conde, Sobrinos, De Voe and Ramirez) and didn’t like to practice with the ‘77 Conde at home. Years later Paco left an interview in front of a dedicated cabinet full of guitar cases and confirmed the circumstance.



Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 6 2021 20:00:33)

quote:

By heart I’d say a 1977 with pau-ferro back and sides;


The guitar was 1975. The label was changed for some odd reason as well as the veneer face plate on the head stock. Rosette was only partially changed, the inner tiles. He first used it in 1982 with mclaughlin and it was honey orange. You can see a nice close up in the Saura movie Carmen. He had it refinished in Red in 1984 at least once again in 1997, until Carrillo did a mess on it in 2005. I was told that he was shocked when it came back from Carrillo’s [:D], like he just wanted it “touched up” for the next tours as usual. I suspect something went wrong there and an emergency intervention went into effect.



Echi -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 7 2021 9:17:50)

I heard this story too but someone else told me that the 1975 and 1977 Conde are just 2 different guitars with sides with similar wood grain. I Don’t know.



Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 7 2021 16:11:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I heard this story too but someone else told me that the 1975 and 1977 Conde are just 2 different guitars with sides with similar wood grain. I Don’t know.


Someone else is therefore confused.

Look, I spent a lot of time dispelling the confusion on this thread...follow it to the end where I got a nice shot of the different labels, but the center brace on the back has the same markings. If you can explain why they changed the rosette it would be a big mystery solved.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=317442&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=1975



Echi -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 8 2021 20:02:36)

Ricardo, it's not definitively proved it's just the same guitar even though you gave good evidences of it.
I had to replace a rosette once (a real pain in the neck) for the same reasons that probably drove Carrillo to do it: those commercial rosette are less than 1 mm thick and if you have to strip the varnish way you can easily damage the rosette or have it discoloured.
It's less understandable why to replace the headstock plate or the label but this is a different matter.



Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 8 2021 20:31:03)

quote:

Ricardo, it's not definitively proved it's just the same guitar even though you gave good evidences of it.


Huh? It’s 100% certain the same box (top, sides, back).



Echi -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Feb. 26 2021 11:26:20)

Got some researches and you’re right: it’s the same guitar.



Hoomanito -> RE: My new Conde! (Jan. 4 2023 23:57:29)

Hi all, I am a new member of this forum! Amazing to see so many 'flamencans' gathered here. I just bought my first Hermanos Conde and love to hear your thoughts, pictures below. It will join me in Sydney in around a week! Can't wait



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orsonw -> RE: My new Conde! (Jan. 5 2023 9:57:10)

quote:

Hi all, I am a new member of this forum! Amazing to see so many 'flamencans' gathered here. I just bought my first Hermanos Conde and love to hear your thoughts, pictures below.


Welcome to the foro. I see you've posted on this epic 'Conde Questions' thread. Perhaps you have read through the thread already? There are some opinions regarding Gravina 7 from the post 1989 period, so you will get some insight about your 1999.

Congratulations on your new guitar. Let us know how you find it, post a video so we can hear it.



Filip -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Sep. 17 2023 13:04:20)

Paco with a blanca in Belgrade (whole concert)




orsonw -> RE: Conde Questions (Dec. 2 2023 12:21:32)

Solera's dive into Conde questions. No surprises but interesting to hear from people who have inside connections and experience.

part one


part two



Ricardo -> RE: Conde Questions (Dec. 2 2023 16:30:24)

This propaganda style video shows even in the 1960’s there was most likely outsourcing already in place. At :33 you see standing the jefes of Gravina, Felipe V, and Atocha left to right “working”. I think it is clear they already had the system in mind and the resultant 3 houses carry the tradition that was already in place, and continue to do so since they passed. 2010 Felipe V splits and Mariano keeps it going the same way as this video shows (based on what I saw there), and Felipe and children have diverged a bit from the concept (hence inflated pricing). The guitar players are Felix de Utrera and manuel Morao.



Echi -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 4 2023 21:53:32)

quote:

Felipe and children have diverged a bit from the concept (hence inflated pricing)
.
The inflated pricing is a fact. I for one think the marketing stuff still go strong.
Anyway, no matter what they say, Conde Hermanos made some exceptional guitars.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 4 2023 22:58:36)

I love Tonino tone , not sure if he allways played with Conde , i think sometimes he played with a Gi. Chet Atkins studio (no hole) at live performance model or something like that , and also a chet atkins with hole , dont know when it started , the endorsement , it sounded great...
one of my favourite records is the "gipsy kings best all acoustic" (no vocals) , a rare edition and a long time ago off market, i think that Tonino played with Conde not sure.

Two years ago i found the guitar(s) that were used , cant find anymore (or the record)


the audio with different cover


https://toninobaliardo.com/my-guitar/

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Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 5 2023 11:50:17)

You can’t tell the difference between a plugged in quacking piezo and acoustic flamenco guitar? Only one reason for using that Chet atkins garbage…feedback. It is a horrible instrument for flamenco period. Cordoba tried to get a similar feedback controlled thin body but essentially they need fender strats with nylon strings. Tonino has been using my friend’s build MCO guitars.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 5 2023 14:55:01)

what do you think it was used in the record on the video ?

the sound is very bright and crystal , but the mix and strings (?) can maybe do that (?)



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 6 2023 15:25:47)

anyone can identify the model please? (and maybe specs , year)

Conde Hermanos Estudio (but which one) , classical , spruce top and Walnut back?







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Ricardo -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 6 2023 15:48:39)

I only have the catalogue for Felipe V guitars. This would be the equivalent of the lowest model, so like any cheap Valencia factory guitar, you are better off getting a Alhambra/cordoba/esteve/sanchis etc., rather than paying the extra hundreds of dollars for the name on the label.



Manitas de Lata -> RE: Rosette Affecting Price (Dec. 6 2023 16:59:17)

thanks ricardo , thats what i was thinkin about , but only found these studio that are plus 2000 , probably not the same

https://condehermanos.com/en/guitars/classical-guitars/



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