GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars

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Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars

GSI is selling two Chinese-made sample flamenco guitars on US eBay. Has anybody tried any Chinese Flamencas yet?

Here are the links:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Flamenco-Guitar-ALL-SOLID_W0QQitemZ200250103427QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2385QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-All-Solid-Flamenco-Guitar_W0QQitemZ200250099891QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2385QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2008 15:48:24

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

The Yamaha CG171SF is a Chinese-made flamenca (albeit it was designed by the Japanese). I'm sure that these were not made in the Yamaha factory.

It's interesting however that the prototype is being sold. Most protos are circulated to prospective retailers or resellers for evaluation. This suggests that the proto did not meet spec or that the final product will be different from the prototype.

I seriously doubt that GSI would be selling these themselves given the suggested price-points (which would need to be discounted by 35-40% to get to street price). More likely Tim Miklaucic requested these for his evaluation as possible additions to the Cordoba line ... which will be sold at Guitar Center and Best Buy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2008 16:36:31

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

The 171 is made in China now? Mine is roughly 4 years old and was made in Taiwan. I guess there are dozens of countries the world over that are losing jobs to outsourcing huh. Well hopefully it's still of the same quality as the older ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 4:46:21

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to kovachian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kovachian

The 171 is made in China now? Mine is roughly 4 years old and was made in Taiwan.

The bulk of guitar-manufacturing was relocated from Indonesia and Taiwan to a new central facility in Hangzhou, China, where Yamaha had long been manufacturing pianos. This happened in early 2007.

Of the new guitars coming from Hangzhou, the only one that has disappointed me thus far was the C45MA (which costs only $90). I thought that the folks in Indonesia made it better (and better looking). I will admit however that the internal bracing seems even cleaner and looks lighter than before.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 6:24:54

rpguitar

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

The fact that these guitars have no label *might* mean that a well known maker is attempting to gauge interest, and using GSI as a trusted expert in nylon stringed instruments to do so... but they don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet.

For example, Eastman Strings is a killer guitar company - they make archtops and steel string flattops that have set a new price point for that level of quality in the market. My first thought (hope?) was that the "factory" could be them.

But the bidding is at such a low price that I don't know if that's really possible.

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'08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 6:40:15

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to kovachian)

quote:

I guess there are dozens of countries the world over that are losing jobs to outsourcing

Yeah...it's a shame.
This is maybe the PdL workshop in China...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 8:03:22

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to rpguitar)

quote:

The fact that these guitars have no label *might* mean that a well known maker is attempting to gauge interest, and using GSI as a trusted expert in nylon stringed instruments to do so... but they don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet.

This is what I was thinking--at some point this could happen. Why would GSI bother if these guitars were junk?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 8:48:21

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to rpguitar)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rpguitar

The fact that these guitars have no label *might* mean that a well known maker is attempting to gauge interest, ...

That well-known maker would probably be Tim Miklaucic who now sources the Cordoba Iberia line from China (they used to be made in Portugal).

The Cordoba C5 is a popular entry-level classical guitar. They are now scheduled to soon announce two new models: the C7 and the C10. I expect both to be solid-body guitars with the C7 probably being solid mahogany and the C10 being solid rosewood.

The flamencas on eBay are probably decent guitars if they are made in the same Chinese factory. I would suspect that the "retail value" mentioned in the auction is their targeted MSRP. So discount the MSRP down by 35%-40% and you would arrive at it's street price (with warranty). Discount the street price by 40%-50% for its second-hand-mint-and-no-warranty price (assuming that you follow bluebook averages for sub-$1000 guitars that have a recognized name brand).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 8:53:41

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
This is what I was thinking--at some point this could happen. Why would GSI bother if these guitars were junk?

Tim is one of the founders of GSI and of Tornavoz Music. They import and distribute the Cordoba and Loriente lines ... among many others. He posts every so often in the GSI forums ... whenever the touchy subject of "Who is Antonio Loriente?" comes up.

Google Tornavoz Music.

The Cordoba Iberia series is their budget line of guitars. The Cordoba Fusion series is their crossover line (for steel-stringers). All Chinese-made as opposed to the Artist series (made in Spain).

It had been long speculated that Cordoba wants some lower-priced flamenco guitars to take a piece of Yamaha's action with the CG171SF.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 9:00:28

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to ChiyoDad)

quote:

Google Tornavoz Music.

Nice site and a good resource. Thanks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 9:17:11

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

I guess there are dozens of countries the world over that are losing jobs to outsourcing

Yeah...it's a shame.
This is maybe the PdL workshop in China...

cheers,

Ron

nice....such intricate craftmanship

I love how one of guys working on the belt sander looks to the side while the guitar was still on the sander YIKES! this is extreme factory line....bam, bam..bam next.. Regarding PdL's line of guitars, I use a PdL Carrillo blanca for my gigs and I was pretty blown away with the sound, craftmanship and playability. It reminds me a lot of Conde...very similar to feel and tone. Maybe this is what Paco and Ramon wanted Carrillo to make, basically a Conde for less. The top has probably one of the best quality and tighest grained spruce top I've ever seen on a flamenco ..even has bear claw on it. I wonder if Vicente Carrillo makes this guitar (or still makes guitars) He has been selling a lot of these lately from what I've heard and since he dropped his normal 1a line flamenco and only offers PdL models. This one sure impressed the heck out of me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 9:50:50

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

I'd think with all the flamenco guitarists in LA, one of them would have gone into the shop and played and bought the guitars if they were any good. As tempting as it is to get a flamenco guitar that plays and sounds decent for cheap, you'd be buying a pig in a poke. Too bad I'm not in LA!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 9:59:31

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

I'd think with all the flamenco guitarists in LA, one of them would have gone into the shop and played and bought the guitars if they were any good. As tempting as it is to get a flamenco guitar that plays and sounds decent for cheap, you'd be buying a pig in a poke. Too bad I'm not in LA!

I'd have to try a guitar like this--with no known pedigree--myself before buying. It’s too risky to buy without trying first.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 10:17:39

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to DonS)

quote:

I use a PdL Carrillo blanca for my gigs and I was pretty blown away with the sound, craftmanship and playability. It reminds me a lot of Conde...very similar to feel and tone. Maybe this is what Paco and Ramon wanted Carrillo to make, basically a Conde for less.

Hey Don,
These guys will make Condes too!
No prob,... Just depending on how many you want and at what price.
They're pretty flexy...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 12:08:45

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

As tempting as it is to get a flamenco guitar that plays and sounds decent for cheap, you'd be buying a pig in a poke.

Greg Rich, who used to work in the custom shop at Gibson and was hired by The Music Link to design their new guitars (the revived Recording King label, now made in China) has, by practice kept all the protos of his creations. Greg, of course, has built and designed some big-$$$$ guitars but these protos that he keeps are about $400 to $800 at street.

I'm curious that Tim chose not to keep these protos.

Do the auctions specify a return policy?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 13:20:18

Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to ChiyoDad)

Hey who knows, maybe they are great and will be a great deal, but they are unknowns at this point. LA isn't exactly the middle of nowhere though-you'd think if they were any good it'd be no problem to sell them locally.

No return policy specified. They are claiming the reserve price represents a great deal, but since no one knows what the reserve price is, that's kind of vague. I suppose you could trust the reputation of the store, but since what's a great or even a good guitar is so subjective, it's a real gamble to pay for something that you may consider useless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiyoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

As tempting as it is to get a flamenco guitar that plays and sounds decent for cheap, you'd be buying a pig in a poke.

Greg Rich, who used to work in the custom shop at Gibson and was hired by The Music Link to design their new guitars (the revived Recording King label, now made in China) has, by practice kept all the protos of his creations. Greg, of course, has built and designed some big-$$$$ guitars but these protos that he keeps are about $400 to $800 at street.

I'm curious that Tim chose not to keep these protos.

Do the auctions specify a return policy?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2008 13:27:09

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Ron.M)

LOL...I'm sure they can, if they really wanted to...the Chinese have mastered the art (if you can call it that) of copying products ..pretty darn good at it. I'm sure if these big manufacturers decided to send some of these guys to Spain to apprentice and learn from the Conde plant, then can come out with something very similar. I don't think that its on their agenda to produce top of the line though...they would rather go for the big bucks and sell mass quantities. I've heard lately that some big name Spanish guitars are being outsourced to the Madinter workshop (?)...I didn't even know they made guitars there as well..darn, spanish guitars should be getting cheaper instead of more expensive!

except for those like Anders and others that actually make their own guitars.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2008 13:11:47

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

I thought I had read somewhere about a Spanish guitar manufacturer planning to outsource its low-end production to ... of all places ... India. Had anyone heard of that one?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2008 18:28:39

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

I got the word from GSI about these Chinese-made guitars:

"All eBay sales are final"

'Nuff said.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 9:24:05

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to ChiyoDad)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChiyoDad

I thought I had read somewhere about a Spanish guitar manufacturer planning to outsource its low-end production to ... of all places ... India. Had anyone heard of that one?

Are you serious?! LOL!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 14:36:04

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to DonS)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DonS
Are you serious?! LOL!

I can see it now ....

... flamenco sitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 14:50:01

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

... featuring Paco de Gupta.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 14:53:06

rpguitar

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

I'm surprised that nobody sees the irony... The Gypsies originated from Northern India! Full circle in a few hundred years.

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'08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 17:30:31

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to rpguitar)

quote:

I'm surprised that nobody sees the irony... The Gypsies originated from Northern India! Full circle in a few hundred years.

It didn't occur to me--now it all makes sense.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 18:28:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

I was in Madrid last month to buy wood. There were hardly any cypress to choose from... Maybe its all in China?

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2008 22:55:38

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I was in Madrid last month to buy wood. There were hardly any cypress to choose from... Maybe its all in China?

You betcha!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2008 6:33:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to ChiyoDad)

Not bad!

It's "Picture Postcard from Spain" Flamenco though.

You can hear the same 4/4 stuff on Spanish commercial radio.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2008 11:42:41

enurbf03

Posts: 26
Joined: Sep. 3 2008
From: petticoat junction

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

The guys at GSI are good guys. Im not sure what this stuff is about.

But ive bought guitars from them, and have always been satisfied.

E

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2008 12:53:03

rpguitar

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

On other boards, members would be jockeying to be the first to try such a beast and "report back" to the troops. Let's see some bidding! Where's that buying spirit?

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'08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2008 19:02:57

ChiyoDad

Posts: 151
Joined: Jun. 30 2007
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: GSI Chinese Sample Flamenco Guitars (in reply to rpguitar)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rpguitar

Let's see some bidding! Where's that buying spirit?

Feel free to bid and let us know. I think I'd rather go with a sure thing in a good Navarro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 3 2008 20:08:18

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