3 Fingered picado - revisited

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Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

3 Fingered picado - revisited

Now the forum is more of less back to normal and its safe to discuss modern flamenco technique again, I have decided to make this post to share with you guys something that was made much clearer to me in Sanlucar with Gerardo Nuñez.
The 3 finger picado techniques are some of the hardest around and trying to get to grips with them is not helped at all by the fact that the book that accompanies the Gerardo Nuñez Encuentro DVD has some small but very significant errors in fingering which make the more difficult runs more or less impossible to perform in the way he does.
Firstly Gerardo plays this stuff at a blinding velocity so it’s hard to figure out what is going on and secondly, the right hand fingering is crucial to nailing the technique.
Luckily Gerardo slowed down just long enough this year to let us figure out what is going on. If you have the Encuentro book, you might want to pencil in the correct fingering later.
We are going to look at the solea por buleria that is on “Andando el tiempo” and on the Encuentro DVD. First thing to do is drop the bass 3 strings a semitone to D flat, A flat and E flat.
The first and simplest finger pattern is a group of 6 notes in position VI on the neck. The thumb plays the bass string on every first beat. Play 2 strokes followed by hammer on pull off with the middle finger then the forth note with (i) on the second string and the final note with (a). Repeat this pattern 4 times.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 4:01:18

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

The next pattern is more complex. It starts off exactly the same as the one we just played. The following notes must be played with m,i,a,m,i,a. This longer pattern is played twice in a row, then followed by the first pattern 4 times.
Now repeat…two of the longer pattern followed by 4 of the short.
Gerardo uses this in his live intro and I have made a rough recording in the upload section. For variation now try 4 of the long followed by 4 of the short.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 4:02:59

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

Ok….now we can extrapolate this technique for the crazy run in the middle of the composition. The hammer ons and pull offs are ALWAYS using the middle finger twice in a row. Where there are no hammer ons or pull offs the fingering ALWAYS follows a,m,i. As I said, Gerardo slowed it down just long enough for us to see what is going on and he explained that in this case the double (m) stroke is the key to the technique. The (i) plays the string below the note you just played and the (a) plays the string you just played with (m). I have been playing around with this for the last day or 2 and it’s definitely correct. The Encuentro book is close but you can’t nail it with the left hand fingering they suggest. Here is the correct run.

Again I made a rough recording in the upload section. It is still early days and the technique is far from clean yet but you can hear that it is possible with practice. This technique is used in his solea, his “siempre es tarde” buleria, the taranta and many other compositions so it is worth perservering with.
There are a few exceptions to this rule but I will cover them another time when I’ve got my head and fingers round them.
Pimientito

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 4:05:48

Stu

Posts: 2552
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

Hey thanks for this. Strange as I was just revisiting this piece last night.

Ill check out your info tonight when i have my guitar.

Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 4:44:00

KenK

Posts: 43
Joined: Aug. 6 2005

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

Hey Pimientito-

I've been wondering if the modern flamenco players use 3 finger scales. (rh)
Personally I also like i-a for faster passages.
Do you know if this is being done a lot these days?

Thanks for this post.
I've been working on 3 finger scale tech in a classical context.
It's good to know it's what one of my fav guitarists is doing.

KenK

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 9:12:55

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

Marcos.
It's great you're willing to share these things with us, fresh from Gerardo's kitchen.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 12:23:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

Sheesh mark, I am going to the old school foro after that!

Honestly, a couple personal feelings. This technique if "old school" at least if you think of Paco's "Fantasia Flamenca" is old, since he was messing a lot with this technique on that album. Perhaps not so extensively as Nuñez with cross stings, but he was doing it non the less. Secondly, it is important to point out this technique is not truely "picado". It is more like a tremolo/arpegio free strokes technique, that is being used for scalar runs.

And lastly, to get the speed up on this, and I figured this out more from Paco than Gerardo but it IS the same kind of technique, but if work on the ending of it more, it is more tremolo like and smooth. meaning I practice like this:

E----6--7----------------6--7-----------6--7----------etc
B-9------------------9---------------9----------------------
G-------------------------------------------------------------
D-------------------------------------------------------------
A--------------------------------------------------------------
E--------0-------------------0---------------0---------------

So you work on a fast gallop iam, and emphasize the m finger and get the bass note with it rest stroke. Once you get that, the repeating m finger stuff is not so hard. But that little gallop is tricky, but if think of starting with the index,like a tremolo, at least I was able to get it going fast easier that way. Here is another good one from Gerardo's other Solxbul in standard tuning:

E--5-----4-----0---------5------4------0--
B--0--------6-------------0----------6------
G--5----------------------5-----------------
D--3----------------------3-----------------
A---------------------------------------------
E---------------0-------------------------0--

This time the gallop is mia, mia, with pulgar and a together, but again, a good exercise for this technique.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2008 19:11:20

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sheesh mark, I am going to the old school foro after that!

...is there anything Paco hasn't done??

Yeah technically it is more of an arpeggio than a picado but I dont know what else to call it. Most of Gerardos runs are arpegio but they are so strong they sound like picado. I'll have a go at the exercises you posted.
But in terms of this piece, I was so excited that I finally understood the technique this year I had to tell everyone

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2008 7:17:25

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It is more like a tremolo/arpegio free strokes technique, that is being used for scalar runs.

Is it correct to say that with picado each finger strikes from above the string then down toward the sound board, but with tremolo each finger comes from below the string and up? Coming from below seems to have a lighter attack than from above. So would a three finger picado like ami press down on the string instead of up?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2008 10:47:08

luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

aaah nice one mark, i was going over parts of that that I tabbed but was trying to remember the rest.
one of the hardest parts of those first exercises is the bass note which is apoyando at the same time as the m finger or whichever one ur using. at times trying to get that coordination makes me feel like ive just picked up the guitar for the first time again!
thanks a lot for that mark and ricardo!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2008 14:03:28

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to KenK)

quote:

I've been wondering if the modern flamenco players use 3 finger scales. (rh)

Yes..the first time I heard it was in PDLs columbiana. I remember seeing a guitarist in England called Eduardo Niebla around that time who also uses a lot of 3 finger scales. Gerardo uses them too and the (RH) fingering is simply a,m,i throughout the whole run. I dont know if its stronger but certainly faster once you get it.

quote:

Is it correct to say that with picado each finger strikes from above the string then down toward the sound board, but with tremolo each finger comes from below the string and up? Coming from below seems to have a lighter attack than from above. So would a three finger picado like ami press down on the string instead of up?

Errr..... Ummm...
The three fingered picado is not "appoyando" if thats what you mean, which is why its not technically a picado...that is to say you not doing a PDL picado with three fingers. It feels more like an arpeggio to play, so in that sense the fingers are "coming up" as you put it (although it feels more like a lateral movement against the string to me)...if I understand your meaning. The attack is lighter though so the short answer is.....definately, but slightly not.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 6:57:59

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

This technique is "old school" at least if you think of Paco's "Fantasia Flamenca" as old

Oh by the way....you're banned

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 7:52:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

quote:

This technique is "old school" at least if you think of Paco's "Fantasia Flamenca" as old

Oh by the way....you're banned

Actually no, i was able to log in there for some reason, but he had lift the ban on me by then and was asking me to be a moderator again if I behaved. But I have not lately checked my account at OLD school to see if it still works. I will right now.
EDIT
Yeah I can still get into that forum. I just read how it is a shame that P. Peña plays nuevo flamenco nowadays.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 8:33:03

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I just read how it is a shame that P. Peña plays nuevo flamenco nowadays.

thats the funniest thing i heard

now sharing or discussing Paco Pena is banned i soposse, this guys dont just dislike modern flamenco THEY HATE IT

Poor Paco Pena he would probably be very hurt cause the poor guy hasent played anything different in 10 or more years.

has he got a new album out i dont know about ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 8:57:54

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

EDIT
Yeah I can still get into that forum. I just read how it is a shame that P. Peña plays nuevo flamenco nowadays.

LOL!! wow that is very sad news about Paco Peña....

Great exercises Ricardo and Pimientito. I'm not mistaken Gerardo does an exercise of this on his Encuentro video but it was for arpeggio. Gerardo has strong arpeggios and it does sound like picado sometimes maybe he does rest strokes? I know Vicente does rest strokes on most of his arpeggios and it sounds strong.

The last time I saw Cañizares live he did a few runs with this 3 finger picado. Impressive once you get it down. I've been practicing this for awhile now and it seems more like an arpeggio than a picado technique. If I recall, Riqueni does this technique on a quick run on his Taranta/Tango piece which I can't remember the name at this time.

-Don

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 9:09:13

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to DonS)

Don,
Serranito has used this technique all his life.
I used to see him in Cafe de Chinitas in Madrid and although it was extremely fast, it wasn't a patch on PdL's "even-ness".

But ToddK posted something a while back from a more recent album and it was just incredible!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 11:57:36

DonS

Posts: 232
Joined: Mar. 1 2007
From: Florida and San Francisco Cali

RE: 3 Fingered picado - revisited (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Don,
Serranito has used this technique all his life.
I used to see him in Cafe de Chinitas in Madrid and although it was extremely fast, it wasn't a patch on PdL's "even-ness".

But ToddK posted something a while back from a more recent album and it was just incredible!

cheers,

Ron

Wow I wish I could've been there at the famous "Cafe de Chinitas" nice...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2008 16:58:05