Stiff right hand fingers (some light pain)

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FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

Stiff right hand fingers (some light...

Hi all,

I recently joined the forum and have with interest been reading various posts. I would have liked to post something contributing but instead I find myself needing some advise/help. I have played classical, rock and jazz of and on over the last 30 years but 18 months ago finally decided to follow my hart and learn to play flamenco guitar. I have dilligently been focussed on learning and playing as much as I can possibly get in. For me that is on average one hour each day.

Since a couple of months though I started to wake up with the middle knuckles of my right hand m and e finger feeling stiff and swollen. They are not swollen but just feel like it. After I get up and going for a while the fingers free up fine throughout the day. A couple of weekends ago my knuckles remained fairly stiff throughout the day to the point where I could not get a decent rasgueado going. The last two weeks I had very little trouble with my fingers though I could "feel" it in the background. This morning though I woke up with my e finger quite stiff and somewhat painful to bend. Once again it free-ed up but never really goes away.

I researched my problem on the WWW but have been unable to find any article that accurately describes my problems, let alone solutions.

So, the big question is: has anyone on this forum had a similar condition. Is it perhaps RSI caused by my guitar playing, bad posture perhaps ( I hold my guitar the classical way using a knee support) or is it the dreaded onset of arthritis. I actually don't want to hear it is the latter!

If any has any comments and or suggestions/advise I would really appreciate to hear from you!

_____________________________

If you keep doing what you've always done, then you will get the same results as you've always got.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 6:48:15

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

Hi FlamencoNZ,

sorry to say it definitely sounds like "arthritis" (actually the term "arthrosis" would be better, as it's a degenerative, chronic condition) ...
The symptoms are typical (stiffness when you get up, freeing up after a while), and I gather from your mail, that you're an Old Boy yourself (welcome aboard).

Don't force things. Keep playing though (movement is good). Try local warmth. If the swollen feeling/stiffness gets worse you might try medication: Best see your doctor first.

Ed

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 7:02:08

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

Does the NZ mean you're from New Zealand?
I was born there, but only spent the first couple of months in Wellington, and haven't visited since...

Ed

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 7:04:17

FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Does the NZ mean you're from New Zealand?
I was born there, but only spent the first couple of months in Wellington, and haven't visited since...

Ed

Yeah you're right. NZ means New Zealand. Do you live in Germany now? If there are any other kiwis on this forum I'd love to catch up with you. I am based near Hamilton.

quote:

"arthrosis" would be better, as it's a degenerative, chronic

That doesn't sound good. Hmm, I will have to do some research on that.

Thanks for your comments though.

_____________________________

If you keep doing what you've always done, then you will get the same results as you've always got.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 7:50:51

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

Yup, I live in Germany, and meanwhile I've been naturalized.
(BTW I'm a doctor, albeit a psychiatrist)

Ed

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 9:56:11

FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to edguerin)

Well Ed maybe it is time you come and visit NZ. It's a great country. I did research on ostrosis and most articles say it occurs mainly in the back and other joints. None mentioned the fingers. However, I did find a reference to Rheumatoid Arthritis which is degenerative affecting mainly fingers wrists and knees and comes and goes most of the time. Though they say it is typically symmetrical. In my case it is only the right hand. I keep digging.

About being an old boy, well ....... 40 something isn't that old is it? LOL

Dan.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 10:52:24

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamencoNZ

Well Ed maybe it is time you come and visit NZ. It's a great country. I did research on ostrosis and most articles say it occurs mainly in the back and other joints. None mentioned the fingers. However, I did find a reference to Rheumatoid Arthritis which is degenerative affecting mainly fingers wrists and knees and comes and goes most of the time. Though they say it is typically symmetrical. In my case it is only the right hand. I keep digging.

About being an old boy, well ....... 40 something isn't that old is it? LOL

Dan.

I started noticing osteo arthritis in my fingers in my late 40's. Now at 65 I can still play the guitar a little bit. There's no loss of facility the left hand fingers just won't bend tight enough to play some of the chords. I intend to build a harpsichord this year and take lessons. You're never too old to learn something new. BTW, ibuprofen helps a lot.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 13:54:54

Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

It is impossible for anyone to diagnose your problem over the internet. A Neurologist or prehaps an Orthopedic MD might shed some light on what is causing this problem, but chances are they will tell you, "learn to live with it."

I understand your frustration as I live with several disabilities that make playing flamenco a real challenge. Both my hands are weak, constant pain, and stiff 24/7 as well as other nerve damage ( MD's call it Fibromyalgia-- basically a failure to diagnose) and losing my hearing (inner ear problem). A MD might be able to give you medications that would help depending on what is causing this problem. The side effects of the meds is a big consideration. Anti-seizure meds such as Tegretol can be efffective, but long term use can lead to serious problems such as electrolyte depletion, reducing white blood cell count to dangerous levels, etc. I have been down that road and at least stiff painful hands are not life threatening.

You might consider other rasqueados such as q-i-p, etc. I can't remember the name of the famous gyspy that had use of only two fingers and his thumb on his right hand. He came up with some awesome technique.
I find soaking my hands in warm water helps some. Also start with very slow movements and speed up as your hands loosen, if they do.

Flamenco can be played with simple strumming and slow simple falsetas as long as you stay on compas. I have found my disabilites to be an ability because now I concentrate on playing with expression ... expressing my pain and frustration while staying in compas using a simple Soleares, etc. Even a Bulerias can be played slow although it won't make you popular or receive any praise.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 14:36:58

Samarto

Posts: 160
Joined: Mar. 21 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

I intend to build a harpsichord this year and take lessons. You're never too old to learn something new. BTW, ibuprofen helps a lot.

I wish I had known this sooner John. I recently sold off all my books, plans, and tools for harpsicord. In the early 70's I repaired and tuned a harpsicord for a local college and had plans to build one, but never did. I had several hundred invested in all this stuff and basically gave it away on ebay. I always thought flamenco would sound good on a harpsicord.

Ibuprofen will help, but one should be aware of possible stomach problems as well as problems if they bleed easy. Also it can agrivate inner ear problems causing vertigo if one has an inner ear weakness.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 14:56:48

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to Samarto)

flamenco nz,

take up tai chi, it cleared up a sore and stiff ankle ive had since i was 17. it's done wonders for my health and im only 24. im alert and always full of energy (some of my friends are not in the same boat)

essentially any disease or ailment is caused by a malfunction in the flow of the body's natural way, thus tai chi improves natural flow (I view natural flow as the clean movement of blood and the nutrients and oxygen therein to anywhere in the body)

best

Henry

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 14:58:56

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to henrym3483)

I did have something similar in the a and c fingers which I assumed was an acute thing I did while practising. Though I was right it still took over a year and a half for the pain to go away.

Like Sam said, the internet isn't always the best for these things, pain described in words is hard to diagnose. As an example: since I was a young teen I suffered chronic headaches and always just lived with them until they got to a degree I couldn't stand anymore - I'm talking close to crying and banging my head against a wall kind of pain. First place I checked of course was the internet. I got reading glasses, quit smoking, stopped caffiene and alcohol intake, regulated my eating habits, did sports, tried sleeping longer, extra strength migraine meds, nothing worked and I was still in pain, unconcentrated, tired and grumpy all the time.

Recently after enough pressure from my wife I went to a doctor who explained it's not a headache but facial pain and prescribed me a special night guard to keep me from nashing my teeth at night. Headache's gone now!

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 15:42:51

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 1 2007

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

quote:

A couple of weekends ago my knuckles remained fairly stiff throughout the day to the point where I could not get a decent rasgueado going.

I had the opposite experience. For several years prior to playing flamenco daily arthritic pain was becoming progressively worse in my finger and thumb joints. It was especially severe in the morning when first woke up. Medications helped, but had undesirable side effects. I also was experiencing increasing pain and tingling sensations due to a carpal-tunnel condition. My doctor recommended carpal-tunnel surgery, but I didn’t have the surgery because of some bad outcomes I had read about on the web.

I expected flamenco playing would make both those problems worse, but surprisingly they both faded away and are now totally gone after a year of daily playing. An orthopedic surgeon told me he wasn't surprised by that. He said it seems counter-intuitive to most people, but regular, vigorous joint exercise usually improves arthritic joints and regular wrist flexing often reduces carpal tunnel problems over time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 17:16:56

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

If this pain is based on RSI it might be because you have not properly warmed up with slow practice for your right hand before going into any of the rasgueado, picado and tremolo techniques. I've read many statements cautioning players to be careful not to overdo it because they can hurt or even permanently damage their strumming hand.

It's possible to play for hours--Flo's practicing 12 hours a day--but it takes years of practice to build up the right hand so that it can take it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 17:51:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14826
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

I have the same sometimes, m finger and wrist of right hand. It is not from playing, it is more like arthritis, but I think I had some injury in the past, not sure if that is still considered arthritis. I notice it the worst a day before a storm or big weather change. Sometimes my hands feel swollen in the morning after drinking alcohol or salty food. Drink lots of water before bed and when you wake up.

I will say it was maybe 10 years ago I first had the problem with m finger. In cold weather it hurt to play a little. But I changed the way I filled my nails at that time, so less resistance, and it has never hurt while playing since I changed the nail shape. It was literally an over night difference. The wrist thing was bad for a year, and went pretty much completely away after a plane ride...don't understand that one at all. Not sure if any of this info helps you at all.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 22:25:47

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to Ricardo)

there you have it, plane ride cures problems.

so you have to fly to germany now too!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 1:26:38

FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Thank you so much everyone for your comments. This is quite overwhelming! I am not alone in this universe after all!

LOL

quote:

You're never too old to learn something new. BTW, ibuprofen helps a lot.

John, I always keep putting up a challenge otherwise I get bored with it. I am in the process of learning a tangos for the last 6-8 months. I can finally memorise the whole 6 minute piece, now I am working on improving compas and ironing out the most challenging phrases. It is great fun so far! I am not desperate enough yet on taking medication. I do not like the possible side effects. However I started taking turmeric as an anti-inflammatory but it doesn't seem to help yet. I also tried glucosamine joint formula but no change either.

quote:

You might consider other rasqueados such as q-i-p, etc.

You are right Sam, I do play other rasgueados such as Ioannis Anastassakis's alternating up and down with the a and m fingers. It is easy to learn and can be very fast, and produces a nice continues rasgueado. I also use the abanico p-ma-p. Another rasguado I use is one I developed myself which is pii with the thumb going down and i finger up and down. So there are ways for which I do not need my e finger.

quote:

take up tai chi, it cleared up a sore and stiff ankle ive had since i was 17. it's done wonders for my health and im only 24. im alert and always full of energy (some of my friends are not in the same boat)

Tai Chi sounds interesting too Henry. I will look into this.

I have been a very serious triathlete for years competing all distances including ironman. I'd like to think I eat and live healthy though the last couple of years I am not training as much any more (due to family commitments and loss of drive).

quote:

Recently after enough pressure from my wife I went to a doctor who explained it's not a headache but facial pain and prescribed me a special night guard to keep me from nashing my teeth at night. Headache's gone now!

You are right John, the internet isn't always the best but it is a good starting point. I will go and see my GP soon.

Today I woke up with my fingers feeling pretty good again. The problem could be originating somewhere else. Perhaps a nerve pinched under my shoulder blade from being too tense when I am playing. I should try that mirror trick I read about on this forum.

quote:

it seems counter-intuitive to most people, but regular, vigorous joint exercise usually improves arthritic joints and regular wrist flexing often reduces carpal tunnel problems over time.

Interesting about improving carpel tunnel problems. I agree that it is important to keep moving. Depending on the condition but being passive is usually not a good thing BB.

quote:

If this pain is based on RSI it might be because you have not properly warmed up with slow practice for your right hand before going into any of the rasgueado, picado and tremolo techniques. I've read many statements cautioning players to be careful not to overdo it because they can hurt or even permanently damage their strumming hand.

Pgh_flamenco when I go out for a run or something, I always take care that I slowly ease myself into it (especially so as I past the magical 40 year mark)

. However I never used to think that warm-up would be important playing an instrument. Though a few months ago I wised up and started doing warm-ups before playing and on the guitar. However, I couldn't possibly fit in 12 hrs/day playing, even if I tried I'd probably soon be single again.

quote:

It is not from playing, it is more like arthritis, but I think I had some injury in the past, not sure if that is still considered arthritis. I notice it the worst a day before a storm or big weather change. Sometimes my hands feel swollen in the morning after drinking alcohol or salty food. Drink lots of water before bed and when you wake up.

We've had a long summer here in NZ but when I cast my mind back then I think that every time my fingers "play up" (excuse the punt) it coincides with a weather change? I will start to take more notice of this see if there's a pattern. Oh, and I definitely need to go on more plane rides, maybe I need to try international because the domestic flights I have been on the last few months didn't seem to have fixed my problems!

So, if I had to draw up a plan then I will do the following:
1) Go see my GP,
2) Keep playing,
3) Warm-up and stretching before and after play,
3) Find a Tai Chi instructor,
4) Buy a plane ticket to Germany.

Guys, thanks so much for your ideas, comments and suggestions. If there are any more ideas out there please let me know!

Dan.

_____________________________

If you keep doing what you've always done, then you will get the same results as you've always got.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 3:18:57

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 1 2007

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sometimes my hands feel swollen in the morning after drinking alcohol

I just read an article on the dangers of heavy drinking ...
Scared the **** out of me.
So that's it.
After today, no more reading!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 3:45:20

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

quote:

Guys, thanks so much for your ideas, comments and suggestions. If there are any more ideas out there please let me know!

You could try taking glucosamine/chondroitin in pill form, but there is also a topical ointment called Jointritis that you could apply directly to the skin near the joints. Both are nonprescription meds.

You can read about it here: http://www.jointritis.com/ I know someone who has used this stuff for years.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 3:47:14

FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
You could try taking glucosamine/chondroitin in pill form, but there is also a topical ointment called Jointritis that you could apply directly to the skin near the joints.

I tried these pills. Didn't work for me. I have to look into the ointment but probably save it for when it gets worse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BB
dangers of heavy drinking ... Scared the **** out of me.

I guess I have to stop drinking now!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 6:49:40

Haizum

Posts: 43
Joined: Apr. 21 2008
From: York, England

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

Apparently Molasses and a type of vinegar helps with arthritis. Helps the joints. My old man used to take it and it helped him.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2008 23:11:42

darylcrisp

Posts: 69
Joined: Mar. 30 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to FlamencoNZ)

1) Django Reinhardt is the name of the 2-3 finger player: Chet Adkins and Merle Travis developed a lot of their styles after Django(Travis picking).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt

2)yoga will help tremendously for your hands issues-assuming you get the correct teacher-it will actually help your whole body/mind

3)Aaron Gilmartin, in his Flamenco DVDs mentions hand pain as a possible by-product of Flamenco. His advice-practice a lot, but don't practice to the point of pain-back off if pain arises, give it some rest and start over a little less intense.

hope you find some remedy
Daryl

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2008 2:14:32

FlamencoNZ

Posts: 11
Joined: Jan. 10 2008

RE: Stiff right hand fingers (some l... (in reply to darylcrisp)

Hey guys, thanks so much for all your help and support. In a few months time I will let you know how I got on. Funnily enough, today I had no probs whatsoever! Could it be the weather?