El Tempul in detail

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El Tempul in detail

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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

El Tempul in detail

El Tempul is pretty crazy.
It's not like any other Bulerias, even Tomatito etc, where a certain "thread" runs through it and each falseta is in context.
This chops and changes so much from 3's to 2's and is all over the place.
The bit I find hard is to join the falsetas up in a convincing way, as the next falseta is so very different from the last.
Anyone else feel that?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2008 8:06:06

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Do you mean Ron like when a new falseta starts on a different beat of the compas than you are used to ?

I think a solution is to play compas up the maybe one or two beat before that point and simply stopping. Once you can do this repetedly then tag on just the start of the falseta (if you want to use your practice time effectively).

The conviction with Paco plays these sections of abbreviated compas is one of the things that makes his early playing so special.

What you need is as many ways of ending compas as you have places to start falsetas in.

Dee.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2008 8:27:55

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Anyone else feel that

Actually theres only 3 hard thing about El Tempul and thats the tempo the "iai" rasgueado and the long picado melody at the end. Each of the falsetas arent that hard to learn but its the TEMPO its a hell of a tempo

Of course this is how a feel and is my experience only.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2008 17:32:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

El Tempul is pretty crazy.
It's not like any other Bulerias, even Tomatito etc, where a certain "thread" runs through it and each falseta is in context.
This chops and changes so much from 3's to 2's and is all over the place.
The bit I find hard is to join the falsetas up in a convincing way, as the next falseta is so very different from the last.
Anyone else feel that?

cheers,

Ron

I am with Henrik, sorry Ron. I mean you are RIGHT in you observation, but wrong that what you feel is "unique" to THIS piece. And certainly Tomatito, for gosh sakes. The cool thing about flamenco improv, if that there need not be a thread to stitch together all the unrelated falsetas. Cante is the same deal...letras need not connect and tell a big story. Whatever you want you just jump in with it. Tomatito is a prime example in all his bulerias, because his falsetas tend to be short and to the point, though sophisticated.

I admit SOME modern players are doing more of a "composition" thing, like Nunez's Trafalgar, or Vicente's stuff, or especially Manolo Sanlucar who goes from A-Z with every palo, and even puts a true "thread" in there to conect things. But PDL has ALWAYS been mixing un related falsetas in bulerias, even to the present concert tour. And the idea of composing a "piece" made of falsetas that progress some how goes back at least to Escudero's "Impetu".

Perhaps you are just now picking up on it,the "jumping around like crazy" thing, which for sure is a good thing. Now maybe you start to notice it more even in modern players? Anyway, sounds like you are starting to get it under fingers, when will you upload?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2008 21:02:30

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ricardo)

Hmmm...I still feel that it's more "bitty" than Paco's other bulerias (not his current stuff).

quote:

when will you upload?

Whoa!....I'm still trying to stitch the thing together slowly!
I'm only doing a little bit every weekend so it doesn't become boring, so don't hold your breath.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2008 21:14:50

TGerman

Posts: 138
Joined: Nov. 27 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Hey Guys,

I'm really interested in joining the "Challenge" but does anyone have a different copy of this tab? I have the Faucher tab and to be honest I have a problem following along with his tabs, I can read them but it's a real pain in the a$$.

Todd

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2008 5:22:14

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to TGerman)

Why don't you just work it out from the recording?
That's what I'm doing, although I've got some stuff wrong and corrected it again.
I think doing it that way helps you think about it more IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2008 8:02:09

TGerman

Posts: 138
Joined: Nov. 27 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron you are absolutely right, that´s what I should do but unfortunately my ear is about as good as my foot for figuring out music. I´ll try it out though

How are you coming along with it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2008 9:06:29

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to TGerman)

quote:

How are you coming along with it?

Well Todd,
I've got most of it mapped out to some extent, not the actual fingerings but in a way that allows me to play some sort of semblance of the tune.
(I just do semi ligado stuff on the picado bits)
You can't "negociate" so much following tabs IMO, than just trying to pick the tune up.
The thing is light years ahead of my level, but it's a challenge to play any of it at all! And basically it's a Forum fun thing.
I don't sit and practise it all the time so I don't sicken myself to it, but each week I make a little progress and learn yet another insight into Flamenco in general.
So at this rate it looks like I'll be taking it right up to the wire in December!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2008 7:48:06

mediocre

Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 9 2006

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

It's not like any other Bulerias, even Tomatito etc, where a certain "thread" runs through it and each falseta is in context.

Yes, i agree completely with you, its realle hard to me change from one falseta to other, i'm lost once and again. That makes me not like this f***ing song!! I'm not mad beacause i can't play it, it's because other thing.....

quote:

Actually theres only 3 hard thing about El Tempul

i think, actually, there's just 1: play it!!

I am stuck with the iia rasgueo, and i can't progress anymore...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2008 22:23:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to mediocre)

quote:

I am stuck with the iia rasgueo, and i can't progress anymore...

mediocre,
Don't labour over this thing or you'll just waste time best spent on other things IMO.
Just use the index finger to keep the timing good in this part until you can gradually introduce the a (or in my case the m finger).

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2008 23:14:59

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

iia rasgueado is simply a triplet rasgueado, you can replace it with another triplet rasgueado if it's easier, like pmp. It has slightly different dynamics to it, but I'm sure it'll do...with the amount if freedom and leeway in flamenco.

I'm sure it would be played differently in various geographic regions of Spain. This freedom is one of the best things in flamenco. In classical music stuck up academics keep telling you that there is only one way to play Bach, and the trill on the sheet (that has been rewritten hundreds of times) has to be a trill and cannot be a mordent.

I think flamenco is liberated from such rigidness and iai rasg. will easily be replaced by pmp rasg.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 3:43:19

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Hey Bogdan,
I was talking about making it temporarily SIMPLER!
I'd LOVE to see anyone play that El Tempul rasgueado using pmp at anything near the speed without breaking their wrist!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 4:52:07

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Her Ron

I don't know, I can do iai, but my pmp seams much faster. I practiced it for Tio Arango, there is a part there you play with pmp and Vicente makes it pretty fast...or maybe it is just that my iai is not fast enough, who knows

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 4:57:26

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to mediocre)

quote:

I am stuck with the iia rasgueo, and i can't progress anymore...

Don't worry.....I cant do it either.It doesnt stop you doing a good sounding version using another technique.

quote:

I'd LOVE to see anyone play that El Tempul rasgueado using pmp at anything near the speed without breaking their wrist!

Err....I am using pmp in my upload version Ron. Its pretty fast and wrist is still intact. Bogdens right, you can get a crazy fast rasgueo like Vicente using that technique

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 5:51:53

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

PPM surely Ron ? To get the Golpe's in.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 7:13:18

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

i do it "p a i p a i" since my iia is very slow.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 7:47:40

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

Right pai is another version. I think it was Joaquin Turina that Segovia was playing, butchering the rasgueado part. It was supposed to be iai. He couldn't do it.
But it was said that it could even be replaced with imi. It is the same outcome, it's just very specific to each person.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 8:42:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to duende)

quote:

i do it "p a i p a i" since my iia is very slow.

Hey Henrik,
I just watched your video again and your thumb is firmly resting on the low E string?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 9:02:29

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

PPM surely Ron ? To get the Golpe's in.

Exactly...
As a better challenge to yourself, why not just do PPP...

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 9:10:53

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

PPmiim is where I am at Ron.Not to make it difficult but for clarity in the melody and as an excercise for buleria in general.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 9:32:24

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

PPiiaammaaiiaamm is where I am at...for clarity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 9:40:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Bogdan1980)

Hi Bogdan. Maybe you can clear something up for me.

How do you get your golpe in when m follows P in you PmP ? Or are you missing them out ?

Are you trying to be funny in that last post, if so then one of us is missing the point.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 10:28:28

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Are you trying to be funny in that last post

No...its definately possible to do it that way too

This challenge has raised literally pages of writing on rasgueo.
I didnt know that there were so many variations before this came up.
Pacos way of doing it with i,i,a and golpes is hard to say the least and practically impossible to do at the speed and power that he performs it.
To do golpes with pmp, i use the top golpe plate above the sixth string and do golpe with the first fingernail against the body at the end of each group of triplets

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 10:40:45

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to guitarbuddha)

What, it doesn't qualify as a joke unless the smiley is included?. Why did you try that rasguado?

Anyway, I suggested pmp as an alternative. It's like playing a barroco suite without slurs at first, plucking each note so you can get it steady and even and introduce appoggiaturas later.

Same way here, you can use this to get a triplet if there is trouble with iai. With PMP there is an option to golpe (variation of it actually) above the sixth string. Or you can actually hit the plate with the thumb at the upstrocke. Or better yet skip it until you can work it in as you're more comfortable with the piece.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 11:00:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Bogdan1980)

I have zero trouble with iia plus golpes but lots getting a clear bass melody and clear golpes. That is why the ppaiia. Did you try that Bogdan ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 11:06:00

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

I love how so many of us are working on the same tune. I do have the speed with P (up) am(down) P (down) but it isn't delivering the right sound, and of course, you can't get the golpes. I'm working on the way Ricardo does it-I think that sounds the best and is likely the way Paco did it, but getting it near speed is a very tall order even without the golpes-lucky we have almost ten months!! I really haven't reached the conclusion that the golpes are that vital.

I've found Faucher's transciption totally wanting-many outright mistakes from the get go. I had to relearn some parts after viewing Ricardo and Duende's vids and listening to Paco at 1/2 speed. At this point, i'm not looking at it. Amazing the guy would make those kind of mistakes while running a business.

I'm a little over halfway through and tickled to have learned Paco stuff I didn't know, but I'm far far away from being able to play the whole thing. Maybe if we had a division for guys over 50 years old with day jobs and kids I'd have a shot at the cup

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 11:55:21

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Mark2)

I totally agree with you Mark, I'm studying La Barrosa and there are so many errors that I'm beginning to lose faith in Faucher, I mean even the first rasgueado is wrong or I'm deaf, Faucher has it as 5 stroke when I hear it as a 4 stroke.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 12:03:15

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to guitarbuddha)

That seems unnecessarily complex, I haven't tried that, that's why I joked about the other one.

I have used the iia for some classical pieces before, didn't require golpe. But you're right it seems easier to achieve golpe with iia than with pmp, I mean the true golpe with the ring/middle finger.

The one I try to avoid is pai, that one is very awkward for me. But I don't see how ppaiia helps the melody, it looks like more complicated version of iia. I'll try and see.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 14:58:08

mediocre

Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 9 2006

RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)

I can see we're a bunch of cheaters

, then the only one who could make it was ricardo!!!

I feel better now!

Duende, in you youtube version you do it really well with aii, if you are not going to make the golpe it sounds perfect. I wouldn't change.

For me i could do it pmp but it a completely diferent feeling, i don't like it, i can play with this rasgueo much faster than the original song but i can' t put the accents in the notes i want. So i keep trying with iia without golpe because i've never heard about most of the rasgueos im reading here, i don't know how to start with them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2008 22:22:02