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RE: El Tempul in detail
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Ricardo
Posts: 14746
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to mediocre)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mediocre I can see we're a bunch of cheaters , then the only one who could make it was ricardo!!! I feel better now! Duende, in you youtube version you do it really well with aii, if you are not going to make the golpe it sounds perfect. I wouldn't change. For me i could do it pmp but it a completely diferent feeling, i don't like it, i can play with this rasgueo much faster than the original song but i can' t put the accents in the notes i want. So i keep trying with iia without golpe because i've never heard about most of the rasgueos im reading here, i don't know how to start with them. Actually, I am the only one we saw doing so far, but I did it properly VERY SLOW, well, not very slow, but under the proper tempo. In context I still can't do it, but in the vid you see me get the FIRST golpe of each group at tempo...so I am a cheater too. Actually I can do it at tempo, but after each gople I loose the steady even triplet, and hear a bit of a gallop in the rhythm. So I am still working to close the gap. I dont' think it s a big deal for some folks to make substitutes...but of course here I am doing the same, so it is easy for me to say that. In the end this is for fun and a learning experience, and at least TRYING to do it the right way is helping us all technique wise. I am hoping Grisha comes along and does the whole piece perfect at the proper tempo! Ricardo
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Date Mar. 8 2008 3:08:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14746
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M quote:
You know the funny thing is I hear it more as if hes counting it as 123456 Yes, in twos.. 1 2 3 4 5 6 Think in twos, not in triplets IMO. Let the triplets happen, but don't think about them if you know what I mean. cheers, Ron I dont' think he meant the counts of the compas Ron, rather he describes the phrasing of the rasguedo as sextuplets rather than triplets...hence the golpe every other round. Meaning i with golpe is 1, i up is 2, m or a is 3, i down is 4, i up is 5, 6 is a or m, then you start again with i golpe on the next group of 6. I just want to add again the golpes are NOT every other round of 6, or in "twos". They change points in the phrase. 12,2,4,6...7....10,.... 1, (4 he misses I think or hits very light), and 6 he leaves open to prepare for the other rasgueado (pai). My version I hit 12, 7, 1, thats all I could get in at tempo, basically the starting points. My slow version I do what I believe is the intended technique. About iim, it was one of my early suggestions, but after some work on it I ruled it out because the m finger gets a darker sound than the a finger because of the strings it targets. At least the way I do it. At first it seemed more efficient to get the a finger prepared to golpe, but my iia fairly quickly gained speed on my iim, and had a brighter sound like Paco's, so that is what I am sticking with. YOu could be right of course and I should work on the m finger to target more treble strings, but like I said the way I do the technique normally, I found myself favoring iia. Ricardo
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Date Mar. 8 2008 11:54:02
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
Ron, are you saying i down, i up, then m down? Yes Mark...as Ricardo says... quote:
Meaning i with golpe is 1, i up is 2, m or a is 3, i down is 4, i up is 5, 6 is a or m, then you start again with i golpe on the next group of 6. Of course Ricardo is referring to 1 as the first beat of the rasgueado, NOT the compás. So when it starts the first beat is on the 12th beat of the compás if that makes sense) Also.. quote:
I just want to add again the golpes are NOT every other round of 6, or in "twos". They change points in the phrase. 12,2,4,6...7....10,.... 1, (4 he misses I think or hits very light), and 6 he leaves open to prepare for the other rasgueado (pai). Yes, I hear the whole golpe phrasing as 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 (Although this is how he plays it in THIS recording. He probably has lots of variations to it according to how he's feeling, so don't get too hung up on this IMO.) I've still got a long way to go to clean and speed it up. Anyway, let's see how we're all at by December! The big laugh is that the only other player I've heard play a similar thing is Tomatito, yet it is a ragueado that you could fit into any similarly paced Buleria and would sound great, so if in the future you ever hear anybody do it you'll immediately know they are a ForoFlamenco member... cheers, Ron
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Date Mar. 9 2008 0:25:13
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Ricardo
Posts: 14746
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: El Tempul in detail (in reply to Rain)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rain It meaning the rasgueado section that we are speaking of. Tempo meaning the beat of the compas cycle, that is 12-1-2-3 etc i have it at 300bpm and I practice it with my metronome at 150 for it does not go to 300. So yes that would mean that I'm practicing the Triplet rasqueado in sextuplets. Since the compas is a 12 beat cycle i see each beat as a quarter note if my metronome were set at 300 or 8Ths at 150. If you carefully listen to Paco's phraseing of the triplet rasgueado, to my ears it sounds more like he's playing in sextuplets rather than triplets, at least to my ears. I am with you. Yep, 150 bpm, and yep they are LIKE sextuplets. Don't forget he STOPS each phrase on the strong beat, so only the very first group are phrased like on the beat sextuplets. After the first pause on count 6, the next groups of rasgueado actually get accented on the up beat (see Ron's bold golpe markings above). 7-9 (nine tuplet?), then 10-11, stop on 12. And again, 1-3, 4-5, stop on 6. The bass line movement in the chord/melody implies that 9tuplet is really an up beat triplet, attached to a 6tuplet group, which is not so strong accented group of 6 as before, because of the missing golpes. So the literal phrasing is like this: (sextuplet)(sextuplet)(sextuplet)(stop),(triplet)(6tuplet)(stop),(triplet)(6tuplet)(stop) remate.... This is how I can "say" the phrase up to tempo with accents: BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-BIGitybigity-Bum....BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum... BIGity-bigitybigity-Bum.... So, since you have to get used to phrase both on the accented beats(12,2,4,6) AND sometimes the up beats (7,1), you might as well get used to the idea that the 6tuplets really are just two groups of triplets, and reserve your goples to just accent when you want/need to accent. (Notation wise, there actually is a difference between beaming 6tuplets or 24th notes, and 16th-note-triplets. For 6 tuplets all 6 notes are beamed together. The triplets, 3 16ths with an 8th note beam to the other 3 16ths. This would be more appropriate for this rasgueado we discuss). Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 9 2008 19:01:04
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