a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP!

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Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP!

Hi guys,

NormanK mentioned the above ras in the bulerias thread. I'm using that in pieces quite a lot atm, and when I play slowly it's fine - clear and even. But as soon as I speed up there's a small but audible gap between the second i and the next a. Perhaps I'm not getting my a finger back up in time to make the next stroke down?

Anyway any suggestion for getting a more even rhythm?

Thanks all.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2008 20:20:46

rombsix

Posts: 7815
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

Hey Ailsa,

I have a couple of suggestions:

1- Try to feel the accents of the rasgueado on different finger strokes. Like this: A-m-i-i, a-M-i-i, a-m-I-i, a-m-i-I.

2- Try to start the rasgueado on different finger strokes. Like this: a-m-i-i, m-i-i-a, i-i-a-m, i-a-m-i.

3- Try to file your nails really short so that they don't make string contact annoying.

4- Practice it slowly, then build up speed.

5- If you do all the above for a long enough time, and still feel it as being uneven, then try the five-stroke one using the pinky finger: e-a-m-i-i.

Hope I helped!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2008 20:54:30

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

Hi Ailsa.
It's tricky to start with. The overall effect you are trying to acheive is an evenly spaced rasgeo where there is an even gap between each stroke. The starting position is crucial. I start with my thumb resting on the body of the guitar, just above the sixth string just behind the rosette. The a,m,i, form a loose fist with the finger nails tucked against the fleshy part of the thumb (called the thenar eminence). From here the trick is to flick the (a) finger over the strings leaving the other 2 fingers in place, then flick the (m) leaving the first finger in place and finally the (i). Each finger should strike the 5th string first. When you bring the i back again as an up stroke, the other fingers go back to the original starting loose fist postion at the same time.
There is a gap initally whilst you set up for the next rasgeo but dont worry...its better to practice this way and get it right. The gaps WILL get less and you can then practise putting 2 and then 3 reasgeos together.
A variation on this that other players use is a slightly different starting position. Instead of making a loose fist, the first joint (phalanx) of the thumb is bent slightly and the 3 finger nails are resting against against the fleshy underside. From here the technique is identical, flick seperately and return to original position.

I would suggest maybe trying Ramzis exercises once you can do the technique a bit better and have got used to independant flicking of each finger.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2008 21:00:37

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pimientito)

Thank you both for replying. I'll get practising!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2008 21:11:22

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

Hi Ailsa,

Looks to me like very good advice from Ramzi and Pimientito. You might find the a-i-i rasgueado useful for gaining in a/i articulation. I tend to use it more for the beginnings of compases, like beats 1-3 in bulerías, and rarely for endings like this other rasgueado that's giving you problems. Nonetheless, you can try working it into your bulerías in order to observe what's happening in your fingers. A typical way to use it is to play a-i-i, a-i-i, i-i over beats 1-3 on a B flat chord consisting of the open fourth string, the third and second strings at the third fret and the first string at the first fret. Since you'll be playing tighter i/a combinations, it sort of concentrates and focuses on this problem. You want to "lead" with your ring finger, but the index has to be right there behind it. In this sense, my ring finger moves much more than my index finger.

Edit: I just noticed that I'd written "index moves more than my ring finger." It's the other way around, as indicated above.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 2:23:07

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 3:02:30

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

The uneven sound you're speaking of most likely occurs when you start the cycle over again correct? If so practice i up than a down for awhile that is soon as you bring i up a goes down.

It also helps to practice it as:

1) i up a down -ia just do eighths
2) i up a down m down i down i up

Isolate problem areas then create excercises for them

Romerito's suggestion works but I prefer bringing a back with i simply because I always stay away from formulas that can hinder me later for example my way does not take any preplanning when it comes time to play a golpe with the a finger. I want everything to come natural. I prefer amii bring all fingers back with i, think about as well you will notice less tension in your hands, try both and you'll see what i mean.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 3:27:24

farteindj

Posts: 41
Joined: Mar. 7 2007
From: Norway

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Guest) 1 votes

I had the same problem when I started out. No matter how much I practised it just seemed impossible to eliminate that stupid little gap. Then I happened to try what Romerito suggests, bringing a and m up while i is going down. Solved the problem one day to the other, plus it took away the tension that came from desperately trying to pull up the fingers faster. Made practise a lot more fun, and now I can do it both ways nice and relaxed.

Farus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 6:55:59

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa)

? So some of you guys bring the a/m fingers back when you do the i upstroke? How the hell can you create a nice and continues sound then?...just curious,

good luck with it ailsa!

jw

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 7:18:34

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Jan Willem)

quote:

? So some of you guys bring the a/m fingers back when you do the i upstroke? How the hell can you create a nice and continues sound then?...just curious,

I've just been looking at what I do more slowly. Maybe i'm just not explaining it very clearly. Ok the (a) goes down, then the (m) then the (i). At this point the the hand is now open and the fingers are extended (straight).
Now when the (i) comes up again to make the up stroke, the (a) comes up at the same time (since there is a common link with the flexor tendons) and the fingernail of the (a) goes snugly back into the fleshy part of the thumb at the exact same moment as the (i) finishes the upstroke. The (m) falls into place a moment later and you are imediately set up to do the next rasgeo.

I find that to bring the (a) back as the (i) is doing its downstroke to be more difficult which is not surprising since you are making atagonistic forearm muscles do the opposite actions at the same time. With the (a) and (i) coming back at the same time, the extensors of the hand are relaxed and the flexors tend to naturally make a fist.

Because the (a) goes back into place at the same time as the (i) finishes its upstroke, there is no discernable gap between the end of one rasgeo and the start of the next. Admitedly this does not happen overnight, but you can get a good continous rasgeo this way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 9:23:18

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

I've found the "exchange" method suggested by Romerito to be really helpful. It is, or was, at least for me, very, very awkward at first- almost felt like starting to learn rasgueados all over again- but it's definitely worth learning. If you can get it smooth there's no gap. Even if it doesn't end up being your standard continuing rasgueado method, it's good for developing control and independence of motion and all that stuff.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 14:18:04

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to srshea)

Thanks everyone - you have been really helpful

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2008 18:53:25

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa) 1 votes

I tried posting this yesterday, but didn’t have any luck.

Oscar Herrero demonstrates this technique in Paso a Paso Volume 1. I know you have a teacher, but instructional videos can still be useful—possibly even more useful than a teacher for some people. As your technique improves you can refer to the video for additional information that wasn’t obvious to you earlier.

In the section entitled “Rasgueos without the Thumb” Herrero describes this technique in great detail. He demonstrates these techniques slowly on muted strings, then quickly on muted strings and finally with a chord starting slowly then gradually increasing speed.

Some tips from the video:
A. Starting position of the fingers: Only I and M are drawn into and against the palm—A and Q do not touch the palm.
B. He suggests the “double movement” of retracting the extended fingers when I does the down stroke.
C. Only the two or three lower strings of the chord should sound.

Three Stroke (two-finger) Rasgueo:
1. M down
2. I down while simultaneously retracting M, A and Q
3. I up

Four Stroke (three-finger) Rasgueo:
1. A down
2. M down
3. I down while simultaneously retracting M, A and Q
4. I up

Five Stroke (four-finger) Rasgueo:
1. Q down
2. A down
2. M down
4. I down while simultaneously retracting M, A and Q
3. I up

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2008 3:08:04

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco) 1 votes

OH my God!!! I've been trying to post for days and it won't let me, its so irritating!!!
Anyway hope this works.....

I think all the exercises I was gonna suggest have been said. the only thing I can add is that one thing that helped me develop a smooth rasgeuado and still helps it improve is practising without the guitar. On the bus, at work, in the pub, anywhere even walking down the street. find a surface to give some resistance then flick away, if there are no surfaces use your own leg, and failing that use the base of your thumb to flick out from.

Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2008 23:39:26

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Stu)

quote:

On the bus, at work, in the pub, anywhere even walking down the street. find a surface to give some resistance then flick away

This is a great idea and something I've always included in practicing rasgueo. I prefer softer surfaces such as my pant leg, the edge of a cushioned chair, pillow, etc. This is good exercise and causes little if any wear on the fingernails.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2008 1:49:37

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

I prefer softer surfaces such as my pant leg, the edge of a cushioned chair

of course!! me too, my right thigh is getting worn away!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2008 4:18:44

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Stu)

My favourite is a rasqueo on a wine glass. My wife loves it - NOT!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2008 16:26:37

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

I find that to bring the (a) back as the (i) is doing its downstroke to be more difficult

There are lots of ways of learning it, different things work differently for different people. I actually taught myself this way, teach it to my students and it closes the gap right up:

Hand starts diagonal to the strings, about 45° in the neck direction, a stroke, m stroke, during the i stroke down you bring the a and m up and change the hand angle so your i finger points directly towards the floor, i finger up and hand angle back to 45°. With this technique I can do an even, fast rasgueado camii, amii or mii no problem.

(I just saw Pgh_flamenco already beat me to this...)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2008 20:33:00

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to John O.)

quote:

different things work differently for different people.

You are right. Not trying to argue here...if you can get that to work that way then great. My point was that you CAN get an even rasgeao by bringing the (a) back at the same time as the (i) up stroke. If you can do it with the (i) downstroke then you have even more set up time for the next rasgeao. Either way can work...I just find my way easier for me thats all.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2008 10:21:12

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pimientito)

Pimientito, what do you think of practicing slowly using the method Herrero suggests and when practicing quickly not paying much attention to retracting the fingers when I is extended? I think that slow practice with the retraction of Q, A and M would work its way into the technique when executing it at a fast pace.

For example, I practiced circle picking for about nine months many years ago and only at slow speed. If I play with a brand new pick today the opposite edges will be worn indicating to me that the picking method I used during that slow speed practice (or at least the way I held the pick) became a habit and made its way into my technique even when executed at a faster speed. Does that make sense?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2008 10:45:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ailsa)

All good advice, nothing to add really. Here is a vid of P. Cepero who does it starting with i up or a down, I can't tell, but ending i up, and it is SUPER fast in bulerias, 4 notes per beat with i up on the beat.

Check out 1:18, then later 3:41 for the side angle shot.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2008 11:16:46

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

Hello everyone,

I'm pleased to have found this "Foro" and to have registered a few days ago. There is an awful lot of knowledge of Flamenco here and the debates are really informative and on target - cheers!

I'm a Flamenco novice and have a question concerning the exercice described above namely the continuing a-m-i-i rasgueo.

I examined the post by Pgh_flamenco referencing to the Oscar Herrero sequence of righthand finger movements. The description is quite detailed however I could not figure out whether the thumb is or isn't anchored to a string or to the face of the instrument.

Could someone please clarify upon Oscar Herrero's technical video demonstration, for it makes for a world of difference whether the thumb is anchored or free-floating - for this particular exercice.

Thanks in advance

G.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 19:58:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to greeny)

amii, is almost always thumb anchored on a string. The thing I take issue with in Herrero's vid is he focuses and emphasizes too much the bent thumb, snaping the bass notes of the chord too much. I mean that is a legit technique and has a specific sound. But often times you can still have the thumb anchored, but NOT flicking off the thumb with the fingers, and target more treble strings for a brighter sound. Specifically it is for getting a different sound, that being the thumb bent or not. Again I refer you to Cepero's vid above...thumb is anchored but he is not flicking off of it, and it is bright powerful sound.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 20:13:40

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, thanks for the quick reply.

I see the point you are making, namely to flick OFF of the thumb or not to flick OFF of the thumb.

The thumb being anchored most of the time.

Cepero is amazing is this clip and the visuals are actually quite good! Self explanatory at the time markings you noted.

Clicking a little further I came upon this one of Cepero and at the very ending of the piece he demonstrates a very nice cyclic rasgueo; the thumb also being involved here in the complete strumming movement - amazing!

Wow I still have a long way to go!

G.

PS: I'm getting all sorts of weird messages concerning my reply posting. It'll take a while before I've figured out what's going on here.... "access denied... insufficient permissions". etc.... I'm working on it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 20:50:33

Escribano

Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to greeny)

quote:

I'm getting all sorts of weird messages concerning my reply posting. It'll take a while before I've figured out what's going on here.... "access denied... insufficient permissions". etc.... I'm working on it.

Make sure you are logged in as "greeny" on the home page not "Guest" (you can "Save as Cookie" when you log in to stay logged in on the same computer)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 21:03:41

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Escribano)

Yo!

Got it!

Thanks!

But.... now I get this when I post something:

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for SQL Server error '80004005'

Timeout expired

/session.asp, line 208

I need to learn the ropes here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 21:29:15

Escribano

Posts: 6416
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to greeny)

quote:

But.... now I get this when I post something:

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for SQL Server error '80004005'

Timeout expired

/session.asp, line 208

This can happen when the connection is slow between the web server and the database, which are in different countries. Not your fault. Just refresh the page and repost.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 21:32:32

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Ricardo)

Hi guys, as I started this thread and loads of you gave helpful advice, I wanna say
Thank you so much!!

My a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i has really improved lots since I put some of your ideas into practice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 23:18:46

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

quote:

Pimientito, what do you think of practicing slowly using the method Herrero suggests and when practicing quickly not paying much attention to retracting the fingers when I is extended? I think that slow practice with the retraction of Q, A and M would work its way into the technique when executing it at a fast pace.

In general, I dont see a problem with using his technique if you can get it to work.
Personally, I never use Q (little finger) for ANY technique in my playing. This is an old arguement on the forum but my reasons are basically
1. I can't grow a strong fingernail on it.
2. It's comparitively weak compared to the other fingers
3. Rasgeo with Q is weak compared to p, ma, p,p for example
4. You can make all the rasgeos etc. perfectly well with a,m, and i
5. Lots of other players dont use it either including Gerardo Nuñez who has some of the best technique there is.

I guess I have been playing a,m,i,i amd a,i,i rasgeos now for about 10 years and changing it at this stage would be kind of tricky...especially now that I can get a clean continous rasgeo with my technique....however I suggest that you can try my way...see if it works for you, if it doesnt look at Herrero or Cepero and see if that is better for you. There is no one true way. As long as you can get a clean, even, strong sound, you can follow, adapt or modify the technique of anyone to suit yourself.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 27 2008 23:53:32

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, a-m-i-i, i HELP! (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Lots of other players dont use it either including Gerardo Nuñez who has some of the best technique there is.

I've noticed this from past posts on the topic as well as YouTube videos. That's one reason I'm interested in trying this technique. Q works well for me when I practice ands I always used QAMI so switching will be difficult.

Thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 28 2008 15:36:33