RE: Volume and lowering the action

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 1 [2] 3 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to bahen)

quote:

I am sorry that I have responded so vigorously today but I really have had more than enough of this sh@t from people here and am really dissapointed to find it coming from YOU. Your post was out of character and more worryingly your target was predictable . People often don't get me and that is my fault, I am a poor diplomat and use a style of prose which many peopl object to,

OK OK OK. I´m sorry and please accept my opologies.

I think you are right. That I didnt get you, and rereading my post (after reading yours) makes me see that it was to much headed on you. That wasnt my intentions. It was way to personal and not very tastefull and even less respectfull. Sorry
And please let me say that I´ve NEVER had anything against you or anything you have written. OK

The whole volume question is very complicated and maybe I´m wrong, but I still feel that in this thread we (not just you and me) are talking about very different things.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 17:37:11

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thank you Anders. I am grateful for and glad to be able to accept your apology.

I hope to continue to learn from your posts. I have admired your dedication to your art and your generosity and enthusiasm in sharing the results with us.

David.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 17:44:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to bahen)

With respect of having only one guitar, a hybrid (I remember that thread).... Well of course its possible but it will be a compromise. Imagine a guitar where you have taken away the most radical characteristics of a flamenco and a classical guitar.
Flamenco, very dry non harmonics, loud rasgueados and needed to be played hard, VERY close to the bridge in order to have volume.
Classical, Strong sustain and the need of being played exactly on the sweet spot (close to the soundhole) in order to sing)

What you get is a very playable guitar which with the right tecnique can sound both flamenco and classical. It wont sound like PDLs first solo album and it wont sound like Baruecos playing Bach but it will sing. It wont be the best for Flamenco dance acc. and it wont be good for orchestral work, but it´ll sing

Some of the small old style spanish classical guitars with a design like Torres or Hauser can actually be very close but do normally have a bridge setup that makes them unusable for flamenco.

I have made two. I cant remember where the first is (Its not in England or Scotland) the second is in Singapore. I liked both but they are not my style of guitar. I could imagine building one with cypres backs and sides would be very interesting and more lyrical. Maybe with a cedar top.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 17:53:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to bahen)

quote:

6. Perhaps most crucially you seem to have assumed that drunken logic is terribly witty. Sorry no.Whatever is frustrating you in you real life or whoever your imaginary image of me ( clearly you haven't the foggiest idea who I actually am ) resembles (maybe a small minded violin teacher?) I am not to blame.

David, I dont get this one, but I accept it. We all need to get things out once in a while and I asked for it.

BTW, its 18.00 hours here in Huelva and I´m going to se Scotland - Italy now in the telly. (I´m on Scotlands side. I hate Italian futball (exept AC Milan))

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 17:57:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thats me trying to be clever, never pull it off as well as I hope.

I hope it is a good game, my hand aches today with the change in the weather (dark, cold and stormy.... Scottish weather does seem to shape its people ), I wish I was in Huelva.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 18:21:09

Sherman

Posts: 26
Joined: Apr. 15 2007

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I've been following this topic with much interest, can't say I fully understand it all, but still it is interesting. Some observations from an old Guild classical spruce top from the 60's may be interesting. Anyhow, this guitar is a Mark 2, which I bought used in Arizona about three years ago. It has a smaller much shallower body than my other classicals, almost flamenco in appearance, but that's where the similarity ends. At the saddle the height of the strings over the top was about 14 mm. My guess is some of this was caused by the raising of the top behind the bridge, because there is a significant "dome" there". So I thought it best to reduce some of the tension on the guitar by lowering the saddle a mm. So now it is about 13 mm at the saddle from the strings to the soundboard. Action height at the 12th fret is about 3.75 mm on the bass side. It plays very well, no buzzing at all except on the bass side above the 15th fret where it makes an odd noise when fretting as though the string is contacting frets on both sides, but I can live with that. Anyhow, just my observations on an old classical guitar which I happen to like a lot.

Sherman

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 18:50:38

bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Excellent show of character - the both of you! It takes a lot to apologise and admit wrongdoing generally, and it takes even greater character to be able to apologise from a position of expertise. Oftentimes, and this is a huge turn-off, people with any sort of expertise in any field snub their noses at too many people; they feel like gods among men, unfortunately, which makes it all the more risible in more broad contexts. I would be doubly proud to be an own of an Anders, not only because I've heard it sounds true to the spirit of flamenco, but also because the character behind its construction had a humbling sense of humility!

No need to apologise for derailing the thread. I've learnt a fair bit already. I intend to purchase a few saddles, and experiment with different heights.

Warmly,
b.h.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 18:55:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

IMHO opinion, a VERY good setup will be some 7 - 8mm string above the soundboard at the bridge, 8 - 9 mm at the soundhole and 6th string above the 12th fret around 3mm.

Wow I just measured my Conde negra, the one everyone likes best, and that is EXACTLY the set up. Hair under 8 at the bridge, 9.5 at the hole. 3 at the 12th. This guitar does not have the easiest action of all my guitars, nor the weakest or loudest volume. But it is pretty much perfect for everyone that tries it. Break angle is extremely shallow.

The other negra is,
10mm at the bridge, 10.5 or less at the hole, and 2mm at the 12th. Much easier action, sound is still good, but more buzz of course. Despite the MUCH steeper break angle over the bone, the guitar is not louder than the other. They are close perhaps the other is a bit louder, but again I attribute that to it having a little more bass. Both guitars have GREAT mid range.

Regarding classical flamenco hybrids, I think that either of these guitars (I described above) with a higher bone and different strings brand (like Daddario hard tension), Slow Bach would come off great. I think one could do well with a flamenco negra, and just different bone and strings for "classical" mode. (I am talking for folks that absolutely MUST have only one instrument for both).

Likewise, I think a Hauser with a low bone, tap plate or one of those static cling on plastic protectors, and some La Bella 820's, would make a great flamenco. Problems is the initial set up of the bridge won't allow for a real low bone with out total buzzing. I actually started learning flamenco on a Ramirez 1a with my own tap plate put on. That was tough! Rasgueados were never sounding right until I got the right kind of guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 21:34:21

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

OMG How I hate these games of the silly human race.

What have we got? A guitarbuilder who wants to take care of his business, careful with his words.And a highlander that wants to be a flamenco, heavy metal and classical player all in one without backing up anything. Except for looooooong, long posts.

Ooooh and now they decide to be friends. Oooooh. Goochie, goochie goo.

Nothing to do with nobility IMO. Just say it like it is guys.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:07:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to koella)

Koella,
I think this is a bit of an internet misunderstanding myself.
I think that in a lot of places where Anders said "you", he actually meant "one".
(third person) and GB took it as a personal assault.

If Simon is designing a new Personal Upload Forum, maybe he could add a new "Fight Forum" as well?

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:21:07

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Fighting Ron ?

When I read through this thread, I see some things that don't make sense.
I hope that Anders is actually more sensible then occurs in his replies.

Otherwise he's more weenie then I thought. Or a smooth businessman of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:37:08

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Respectless.
Is what I would like to add to it.

I mean I've been a troll many times, but I never made any respected foro member kneel for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:45:23

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Or did I ?...

****, I can't remember.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:49:48

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

They must already have been on the ground when I started to talk.

Yes, that's probably it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2007 23:52:29

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I guess that makes me an Angel.
Because Clapton is God already.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 0:01:40

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Btw. How would that sound in other religions ?
Clapton is Buddha ?

Ok, I'll stop now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 0:03:07

wiglebot

Posts: 39
Joined: Nov. 15 2007

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

My action on my PdL negra is 2.2 mm at 12th fret and I never adjusted it. It is easy to play and the reason I bought it is because it could bridge genres (mellower flamenco). It is loud in regards to what one would expect from a mellow (less expensive) flamenco.

I decided to get it when I read Miles Davis explaining that it takes a kinda nerve to allow the notes to die off and have silence instead of working the sustain from note to note. I knew a Flamenco Negra would work. But it does take a lot of work finding the different sweet spots.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 0:59:00

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to koella)

i think the egyptians wouldve said "clapton is Ma'at"
which would make you... horus i believe.

_____________________________

[signature][/signature]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 1:09:27

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Koella... I´ve never been known as a smooth and diplomatic type. You know that.
When I reread my own post, I realized that it was way to onesided and I agree with David that it was respectless.

I agree with the missunderstandings, but mostly on the subject. I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that what is being said is that a guitars volume is something objective. I dont think it is. Simply because what is interesting is the volume of a player playing a guitar. Not the guitar itself. The pulsation and playing style of the player has to go with the guitar. If not, you find any volume even in the loudest guitar.

Besides why all this volume. Proyection and dynamics are a lot more interesting.

With respect of fighting, I dont think this has to do with fighting. Noone got hurt (I hope) Just a Highlander and a Viking in the need of showing their swords

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 22:26:19

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Allright Anders.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2007 23:31:39

bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Keeping on the issue of volume, I was wondering whether there's a substantive difference in loudness between lacquer and French polished guitars. Any difference in tone? Pros and cons of each?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2007 8:52:01

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to bahen)

If you get the chance to go to Madrid you can check this out at the Conde Felipe V shop. At certain times of the year you might get the chance to try 6 A26s in lacquer and another 6 with FP. There is a clear and significant difference in sound. Once you have had the chance to try a few you could spot the difference with your eyes closed. But how to describe the difference ....?
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2007 20:33:29

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders,

I don't think you need to make such an apology. Maybe you were a bit blunt, but
on the other hand David tends to word things with a certain tone as well. In all
honesty if anything I think his reponse was a bit defensive in my opinion.

What's the world coming to when people can't just laugh and tell each other to
simply just f-off. :)

Now take back that blasted apology, and let's all get back to business as usual.

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2007 21:45:31

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to n85ae)

F@ck off Jeff !!!!!!!!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2007 22:34:00

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yeah, Exactly! :)

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2007 4:06:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Jeff.

You dont take apologies back, you just bash the guy

I actually felt what I did and dont feel like taking anything back. Btw, I got back to business some days ago.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2007 9:29:41

bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to RobJe)

I don't have a trip booked to Madrid, so that won't help.

Sorry to interrupt the rest of you going on and on about I forgot what, but any thoughts on the difference in tone, sound, and volume between lacquer and French polished guitars?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2007 11:29:43

Fitna A.

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 5 2007
From: The Netherlands

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I dont' understand the physics but, lowering the strings closer to the board, makes the guitar lose a little volume (you would think the opposite!).

It's the lever of the bridge.

Stringoscillation causes a tensiondifference between the nut and the saddle. The bridge gets the function of a lever to get the soundboard moving.
A highter bridge transport the oscillation to the soundboard more effective than a low bridge

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 20 2007 12:15:57

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Fitna A.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitna A.

quote:

I dont' understand the physics but, lowering the strings closer to the board, makes the guitar lose a little volume (you would think the opposite!).

It's the lever of the bridge.

Stringoscillation causes a tensiondifference between the nut and the saddle. The bridge gets the function of a lever to get the soundboard moving.
A highter bridge transport the oscillation to the soundboard more effective than a low bridge

Ok, I see now. So the break angle behind the bridge is not necessarily the thing then. That makes more sense based on experience. I have seen guitars with shallow break but high action that are still louder than guitars with a steep break and very low action.

Also, low action guitars even with high bridge are not always loud, probably because when the strings buzz by hitting the frets, the oscillation is not allowed to be so efficient. (?) So, I think the neck/fingerboard angle and height has something to do with it too. Meaning, these guitars with raised fingerboard and super high bridges, are not super loud guitars (like Humphrey millenium). So higher tension strings regain volume on low action guitars. Anyway, just my thoughts, not based on any real physics.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2007 19:10:47

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Volume and lowering the action (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I think this is a "give and get" kind of thing: playability for volume and vice versa - there is a "golden middle" but it is different for every guitar and player. I just had a new saddle made which raised the action on my guitar from
2.0mm to 2.5mm on the 12th fret and the differnce in volume is VERY noticable (break angle is very sharp if it matters). I also had to switch from high to normal tension (D'Addario EJ45) and now they feel like hard tension with action set on 2mm - not sure if this is normal...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2007 1:05:55