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Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
Strong attack & flamenco guitar
Hello,
I've been thinking recently about this subject, because I was reading about how crazy laud some guitarists are (Pena, Jeronimo, Tomatito,...) and I remembered what an old former flamenco guitarist (he doesn't play much now, because he has dystonia) said once to me. He said that he was really dissapointed, when he first heard Pdl playing live in front of him. He said that his tone was very weak. I have to add that this guitarist is "old school", you know Sabicas, Paco Pena,...Regardles of that, he has huge respect for Paco.... I think that this guy heard Paco in his "Solo Quiero Caminar" era, so I'm guessing that Paco must have been playing something like "Monasterio de Sal". I can't imagine something as technical beeing played real hard... He also commented, how Gerardo Nunez once didn't want to play for them because there was no mic etc,...
So I'm wondering, is strong attack really so important in flamenco (if you're not accopanying dancers). More and more I think it's the sound that makes a good player, not how loud can someone play.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
About Gereardo. When he played in sweden i heard from a guy thats wasnt in his dressing room during warm-up that he played realy loud. In a way the sound of a strong sounding attack might be in the technique then actuall strong force.
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This is hard stuff! Don't give up... And don't make it a race. Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
Interesting topic
I think theres a difference between attac and volume ( to me attac means sharp and volume means loud)
A good guitar and good sound ofcourse makes a huge difference in both attac and volume.
Attac is very important (sharpenes), volume not as much this days i gues as you would never play in front of an audience without a microphone, however its still a good idea to have it at your disposal for dynamic range.
plus theres places where theres just no substitute for volume
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to Florian)
quote:
Attac is very important (sharpenes), volume not as much this days i gues as you would never play in front of an audience without a microphone, however its still a good idea to have it at your disposal for dynamic range.
And that's something that makes Pdl special. That bright, sharp, 100% rhytmically even playing.
I think generaly musicians don't play as loud as they did. Thanks to mics. I mean in the old days you had gypsy swing bands playing without mics. Also the avenues are much bigger today.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
yes i gues Volume its not absoluteley necesary but then again neither is Picado its nice to have both under your belt still.
Any pro can play loud if required, if they dont thats more of a artistic choice and style not because they cant, theres a difference between not doing it because you chosse to or not doing it because you cant, better have it and not need it then need it and not have it.
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
Without having two guitarists next to each other it is hard to say. It is not so much about volume level, but taste and dynamics. Some people just dont' have a musical ear for that thing. Some people play ridiculously hard and loud ALL THE TIME, and worse, they look for the loudest guitars available. Still others play extremely wimpy and soft all the time. Some guitars are louder than others. Personally, I prefer when taste and dynamics come into play, meaning IN THE MIDDLE of the two extremes, and loud guitars have never been the BEST sounding guitars tonewise to my ears.
One more thing to think about. The LOUDEST flamenco guitarist playing on the LOUDEST un amped flamenco or classical guitar, can get CREAMED by a very loud cajon or bunch of loud palmeros. So with those perscussion instruments too I feel the same way. I dont' like constant loud banging or spanking of hands. There has to be dynamics that fit musically. A lot of musicians just want to be heard above EVERYONE else.
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
Ah, since you're here Ricardo. Might be a silly question but may I ask you, did you ever hear Gerardo play some of his Arpeggio studies in person? And how does it sound live? Because when I put a record on, It sounds like some alien is playing, it just doesn't seem possible to me how could anyone play that thing and sound so good.
I mean the volume. Sound(attack) is obviously awesome.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
Ricardo once posted a thing here after attending a Gerardo school. The thing I'll never forget is when he said... Gerardo up close, the guitar just explodes in your face! That really impressed me man, I'm still thinking about it
Ricardo maybe BigRicardoStormyRainCloud....but he's got a lot of interesting stuff too..
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to Ron.M)
Also when I went to the room in a small venue here in Scotland where Paco Peña was playing, where Paco was having his coffee at the interval and practising his "Zapateado en Rey" for the encore, I was amazed at the loudness of the piece even through the door! Flamencos IMO don't just tickle the strings.
My experience anyway!
cheers,
Ron
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar But it takes a woman to break your heart
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
when Gerardo rehearsal with his acoustic band in a little hall, I was standing near by him, but i didn't hear any loudness in his playing. I mean his playing not overcomed other intrument(cajon, contrabajo). But i can hear the guitar clearly.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
I remember taking part in a masterpiece with David Russell ( very musical and accomplished classical guitarist ) and he talked about 'intensity' of sound. There is somethng really exciting about hearing an instrument pushed to its limits which is independant of it's actual volume ( or wether it is miked ). Electric guitarists who play with a lot of distortio can get round this with compression but we acoustic players need powerful technique (when required ).
The weird thing with the Russell masterclass was that when it was your turn the difference between your playing and his ( in terms of pure sound ) didn't seem that great when you were sitting next to him. But at the back of the hall (when I heard the other students play who were of similar ability to me ) it was like night and day.
As well as intensity there is focus as well. By this I mean being able to play real quietly ( or more accurately to give the impression of playing real quietly ) but still having every note crystal clear at the back of the hall. This is kind of like a 'stage whisper' for theatre actors.
However I have played Jazz gigs (fortunately the jazz police hadn't been tipped off or I would have been in trouble ) where a percussionist who didnt respond to our dynamics simply made it impossible to play musically and I played super loud and aggressive all night cause he left me no choice. This was one of the least musically rewarding experiences of my life (worse than a bad conductor).
I remember a Cuban dude who was playing in a competition that I was taking part was staying in the next room from me in the crummy hotel that was provided for us and he just blew me away with his volume. He was playing a Greg Smallman classical guitar and I could have sworn that he was amplified until I was actually standing next to him, it was as loud as a National ! It did give his playing real excitement and made the fast things sound much faster and more impressive. However there seemed very little musical depth to it. I was inspired to try and work out how the hell he did it though ( I an still trying to work it out )
I do get really depressed when I hear someone who has a narrow idea of technique playing with full attack all of the time (as Ricardo was describing ) simply murdering even their own music. It is real easy to train our ears to accept our technique rather than to train our technique to please our ears. This kind of agressive playing for the sake of it tends to be unrhythmical as well since rhythm is about accent not just timing. I remember seeing a video on Flamenco technque by some London based English dude and he was presenting himself as a paragon of technique. Well he did seem to have a lot attack but I would slit my throat if I had to listen to myself play like that for any lenght of time.
I have been listening to the Paco Pena recording of Montoya and whilst he is renowned for his attack ( I have never had the pleasure of seeing him personally ) he also has ALL of the other things which I mentioned. But as Ricardo says give him a bad soundcheck or an unmusical accompanist and he would be hard pushed to use them.
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
quote:
ORIGINAL: cneberg
Ah, since you're here Ricardo. Might be a silly question but may I ask you, did you ever hear Gerardo play some of his Arpeggio studies in person? And how does it sound live? Because when I put a record on, It sounds like some alien is playing, it just doesn't seem possible to me how could anyone play that thing and sound so good.
I mean the volume. Sound(attack) is obviously awesome.
Of course many many times. The record almost does not do justice to what he can do dynamically in your face. In fact I would say his playing can be a tiny bit "careful" on recordings compared to what I have seen up close. I will say he prefers the guitar that is not real loud, as I talked about before. I mean many folks put a guitar in his hands, and I will say you notice when he is playing a guitar that is louder than the one he prefers, and the sound is not really "better". And certain limitations on certain instruments reveal themselves when you hear him play. I could go into specifics, but lets just say in general, yes he can really get a strong attack on the guitar compared to say...me.
I think for some guys just casually wondering about what the sound system might do for a player, well, I will say dealing with live sound is an art all it's own. No matter how good you play, a bad sound system or no sound system at all, can totally KILL your art. So I really respect guys like Vicente when I see what they do with the live sound, not a crutch at all. And no Vicente does not play with light touch all the time. Again it is about dynamics. Guitar is not an instrument for arenas. It is for intimate gatherings of flamenco cante. Always was.
Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
I personaly hear a difference between Vicente's first and his later recordings. In his first I think he was really ripping the strings, but later he seemed to started to use dinamics more. Or it might be just a different production...
And about his live sound, It really is amazing. I was watching him this year in concert and his sound was marvellous! What caught my attention was the concert broshure, where you had written all the band members names, plus the names of the two main sound engineers. So Vicente is very aware of what a good sound (or bad) engineer can do.
@guitarbuddha, I started to play in a band and I have a pickup in my guitar. We play light jazz, latin fusion. But the thing is, that our drummer is loud. I mean he is really loud! It really kills all the music. We are begging him to play softer all the time, but he just doesn't know how. When he tries, he goes off all the time. And then they start to beg me to raise my volume and I don't want to because, you can imagine how a classical guitar, with a pickup under the bridge, sounds when you turn the volume up (I can forget about the mic of course)... It all becomes one huge wall of ugly sound. We'll have to do something...
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
quote:
ORIGINAL: cneberg did you ever hear Gerardo play some of his Arpeggio studies in person? And how does it sound live?
I gotta agree with Ricardo 1 million per cent here. Many people criticise Gerardos recordings as being a bit clinical but the truth is they represent the basic frame of the composition. In real live he plays with much more dynamics, a real Jerez aire and with a technique that makes you want to cry. I would say his recordings represent about 80 per cent of the level of technique he has in real life. Its quite an experience to sit up close and watch him!! On the last course Ricardo asked him how fast he could play "Impetu" I wil try and load up the recording cos it was like double speed of Paco.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
quote:
ORIGINAL: cneberg
@guitarbuddha, I started to play in a band and I have a pickup in my guitar. We play light jazz, latin fusion. But the thing is, that our drummer is loud. I mean he is really loud! It really kills all the music. We are begging him to play softer all the time, but he just doesn't know how. When he tries, he goes off all the time. And then they start to beg me to raise my volume and I don't want to because, you can imagine how a classical guitar, with a pickup under the bridge, sounds when you turn the volume up (I can forget about the mic of course)... It all becomes one huge wall of ugly sound. We'll have to do something...
Anyway, thanks to you all for your comments!
Its the bloody worse thing in the world. And you cant phrase at all when someone like that is around, you cant use dynamics, you simply cannot play well. At least with a bad conductor you can look away.
My friend you know the answer, admit it you do, KILL him
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
My friend you know the answer, admit it you do, KILL him
Well now David you're being a bit extreme here. At risk of sounding like a girlie social worker, I think you should start with something gentler, like superglueing huge mittens on his hands, or stapling fur pads to the skins of his drums.
As an ex-percussionist myself, though not the drumkit kind, playing softly is a real skill, and sadly one not many percussion teachers seem to teach. It takes loads of practice to play more gently without losing either the rhythm or the 'tune'. Tune isn't quite the right word for the pitch of the different drums, but I don't have a better one.
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to Ailsa)
I think I know what you mean by tune. In jazz it means folloing the natural ebb and flow of the harmony and sympathising with the soloist. It means playing whole songs and not one bar over and over again. There was a hilarious moment on the metallica documentary where James Hetfield ( the talented one in the band ) was playing some cool rhythm guitar in four bar patterns , then the drummer started and killed the sense of harmonic movent stress and strain and he played one bar over and over like a loop . Classically trained percussionists ( and rudiment dudes who learn on snare ) sometimes work so hard on getting all of their strokes even that the natural swing just vanishes from their playing.
Something similar can happen with ethnic percussionists who are so intent on exploiting the potential for distinct sounds that they cant relax follow the music and just play with touch and feel. They want their semis to be loud clear slaps and their bass tones to be boomy and are so busy finding them and listening to themselves that they fail to notice the phrasing of the tune. Worse when they are thinking 1234,1234, and you are trying to phrase 4123,4123 they accuse you of being out of time. Noone has the power to ruin a performance and remain oblivious more than a drummer, or an out of control electric guitar soloist .
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
quote:
On the last course Ricardo asked him how fast he could play "Impetu" I wil try and load up the recording cos it was like double speed of Paco.
Actually I just asked if he remember how to play any of it so I could see his fingerings and stuff, but he only remembered like 30% of it. I often ask him a quesion that he is unprepared for and he gets mad and plays what he remembers at 500bpm! Actually he is just doing it for me, and I got what I wanted to see. Anyslower and it would have been a waste of class time.
cneberg, if you are real curious about Gerardo up close, tell me your youtube account name, and I will share with you a private video from Gerardo's class. I have him playing a piece and I uploaded it twice. On version has Pimientitio's audio which is mainly live and natural, and the other is from a different student who recorded in the back where the whole sound is from the mic/speaker. So you can tell the difference between the two sounds very clearly.
And regarding the drummer, yes, BIG problem. The drummer has to be the BEST guy in the band or at least on the same level as everyone. A drummer who can't play soft and keep time, is not very advanced IMO. I can understand if he is a friend that it would be hard, but honestly, you need to try out some different drummers, simple as that. OR you can keep your drummer, but use a drum machine too just for a nice reference, then tell him to play low enough to hear whatever is programmed. That way he has to LISTEN and keep time, and no feelings hurt if you say you just want whatever is programmed to be part of the sound.
Gerardo with Ruck guitar:
In class, the low rumble is the bassy speaker far away. most of the guitar sound is comming from him, and you can see how loud the palmas are:
And in the backyard with lots of palmas and noise, but no mics:
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha There was a hilarious moment on the metallica documentary where James Hetfield ( the talented one in the band ) was playing some cool rhythm guitar in four bar patterns , then the drummer started and killed the sense of harmonic movent stress and strain and he played one bar over and over like a loop .
Yeah I remember that I've seen that docu twice and really enjoyed it even though I'm not a metallica fan. Being a newbie to metal (my 15yo son is educating me musically) I had all sorts of stereotypes in my head about them and was amazed to find they'd employed a therapist!!
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha when they are thinking 1234,1234, and you are trying to phrase 4123,4123 they accuse you of being out of time.
Oh yeah I've just remembered a time in a flamenco dance class when I was doing palmas contratiempo, and the fairly new inexperienced guitarists told me I was out of time I explained contra to him very patiently.
Posts: 1873
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to cneberg)
Most all the pros I've seen up close play loud, play hard. Miguel Linares and Canito were exceptions. But if anyone has that recording of Canito with a quadro, he's pretty slamming there. That doesn't mean they also don't play soft, but when needed thay can pump up the volume. I think you develop that playing for dance and playing with palmas, singers, etc. I don't think today's flamenco guitar "group" with bass, cajon, flute, and guitar amps demands that kind of playing.
And I don't think the guitarist who plays only solo concerts needs that kind of power. But to me it's a very important part of the presentation. When I saw Vicente, he was using the sound system way more than any other flamenco guitarist I've seen. By that I mean he used a ton of volume and a ton of reverb. He sounded great, but you can also tell if it's just him in a room and he wants to be loud, he's gonna be.
Chuscales in a class demonstrated the old style vs. the modern. When playing the old style he played loud in a consistant manner. It sounded great. Authentic older style playing. He used more dynamics when showing the modern style. You could say it was more musical, but it's really a matter of what you like. 70's PdL, which is a favorite of mine, is pretty consistant volume wise vs. Vicente.
When someone asked Chus to demonstrate his golpe, he drowned out the Blue Angels fighter pilots who were flying overhead. The golpe just filled the room, causing everyone in the room to break out laughing from the shock of the monster golpe.
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Strong attack & flamenco guitar (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
Chuscales in a class demonstrated the old style vs. the modern. When playing the old style he played loud in a consistant manner. It sounded great. Authentic older style playing. He used more dynamics when showing the modern style. You could say it was more musical, but it's really a matter of what you like. 70's PdL, which is a favorite of mine, is pretty consistant volume wise vs. Vicente.
All Mark2 says is true. But don't think it is just a "modern thing" to use dynamics. Listen to Melchor de Marchena...tons of dynamics there and way before Paco/vicente etc.
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