Input needed for novice

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

Input needed for novice

Hello maestros, virtuosos,aficionados etc.
I for one, learned a few chords as a child (by sight!) and was able to put them together to create some sort of sound in conjuction w/ arpeggios; boleros, decimas etc. I have relatives that play "requinto", again no formal schooling, they learned by sight or by ear , self taught if you will!

I decided to expand my limited musical capabilities and started taking formal classical guitar lessons as an adult as I do not know how to reach music, nor I know the names of the chords.

My dilema (or question) is:
Should I continue taking classical lessons (pretty boring I say...theres' no "fire" in my opinion!) or should I continue to study techniques and tabs via video/ the net/self study/dvd's? Combination of all?

My current instructor does not have a clue about flamenco, but have heard of PdL, also there are no flamenco instructors/players in or around my homewtown.

I've showed him Oscar Herrero's Paso a Paso book (notation/tabs) and stated he was able to read it but unable to play it...understandable in my opinion as he plays classical stuff!

Is it imperative to be able to read the classical stuff before attempting to play a simple "soleá" or should tabs suffice? What has been you guys processes?

My goal is to learn some of the pieces for personal satisfaction for now until I can find a flamenco instructor.

Gracias for the input.
MR

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 18:18:01

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

Hi there, it's realy hard to advise you about your teacher without actually hearing him play. If he cant read the Oscar Hererro stuff at sight (slowly at least ) then he's probably not a real pro classical guitarist. If his playing never excites you then.

I personally think that the guidance of a good teacher cannot be replaced by books tabs online etc ( they can't hear you ).

I would try and learn to read well as this is a great skill but if he cant read the Hererro then he is probably not a good reader and his advice on this matter also will be suspect.

I personally dont find hard work on the guitar boring... I suppose it all depends on your state of mind. If you want to play cool stuff straight away then you could be in for a struggle.

I am sure the guys here will have lots of advice for you but there is loads of stuff about this in the archives, try and search.

Good luck

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 18:34:27

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

I've been studying Flamenco for going on about two years now, and I'm just
now learning, what to learn ... I definetly know now, that I don't know nearly
as much, as I need to know. Plus I'm not even sure I know enough to know
if that's right or not.

I do know for sure, a "Simple Solea" is not.

See, that's what happens from too much metronome ... Thanks a lot
Guitarbuddha, it's all your fault!

Cheers,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 19:26:31

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

I remember the first teacher I had that I actually learned from. He confused the hell out of me because he said that I couldn't connect one note to the next. Took me a month to work out what he meant.

We teachers should all be shot really.

The Bas#### was right though.

D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 20:29:29

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thanks for you input guitarbuddha....
When I hired him, I asked him to play Greensleves for me (an all time fav)...he did play it but struggled a bit ....I thought he needed practice. I guess if the instructor does not instill confidence/motivation I think it's time to look elsewhere. I in turn, did a few "rasgueos" the 1st day and he was somewhat impressed or so he said. At any rate, I've never before took any lessons...yet I don't think I'm getting the kind of advancement when it comes to reading the stuff...
Gracias again
MR

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 20:57:14

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to n85ae)

n85ae
indeed.... I do know that I'm not even "scratching" the surface :-D
Thanks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 20:59:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

quote:

nor I know the names of the chords.

ecgfc,
Neither did Paco Peña even after he had released his first fantastic Album!
Sure, he knew the root names, A, B ,C, D, E, F, G and the minor and seventh forms...but didn't have a clue as to what the "funny" chords in Flamenco were.
It was just " G", but like THIS... see?...(with either something added or taken away.)

"Modern" Flamenco, you would probably benefit from an education in music and chord theory etc if you want to start composing and writing stuff down.

But it's certainly not necessary to play Flamenco guitar.

A better ear is probably better than an ability to read Tabs or Music IMO.

Spend your money buying Flamenco CDs rather than Classical lessons.

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 21:14:25

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

There is the excellent Gerardo Nunez DVD which has loads of music and you get to see him play all of it with good camera work.

Hey Ron I've got a living to make

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 21:31:21

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Hey Ron I've got a living to make

Don't worry D,

Rafael told me that most of his younger students bore quickly with rhythm and basic chord stuff, but basically want to know how to do lightning scale runs and want it written out either in tabs or music so they can practise at home.

So he advises first.. and then obliges if the student won't take his advice.

After all, the student is paying...
The customer is always right.

So I really don't think you'll be out of a job just yet IMO...

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 21:40:50

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

If you want to learn flamenco, get away from the classical teacher.
It can only get worse.
Classical has got nothing to do with flamenco.
Same instrument but a different dimension..

I'm not talking about guys like grisha and flamencoguru, who seem to be succesful in combining both, but they are exceptions, IMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 22:47:39

Bogdan1980

Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

JUst wanted to make a small comment about that "classical has no fire". It all depends on how you play it. There are pieces in classical guitar repertoire that are just as passionate. Otherwise Paco would not play De Falla or Rodrigo. Just had to say it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 23:05:12

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

I think Paco plays deFalla and Rodrigo to show classical players that it CAN be played passionate.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2007 23:10:44

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to Ron.M)

It was just " G", but like THIS... see?...(with either something added or taken away.)

Ron
[/quote]

Thanks Ron.M ...that's precisely was I was referring to as well ! My old man taught me a few chords, who were taught by his uncle, who was taught in turn be a neighbor who was taught by someone else...well you get my point...but no one knew their names and most stuff was made along "improvisado" style. Thank you all for your input...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 0:39:06

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to koella)

I think that Paco played the music of classical composers because he had the sense and the humility to respect and want to learn from them.

I think that increasingly classical guitarists are interested in flamenco for the same reasons.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 0:39:07

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to koella)

quote:

ORIGINAL: koella

I think Paco plays deFalla and Rodrigo to show classical players that it CAN be played passionate.

My classical teacher said too me, here's your mission for this week...learn this theme and let me know what it sound like next lesson. I got home & work on the piece trying to figure out what in the world were does little dots about (4/4 simple stuff). Finally I figure it out and was pretty confident that I knew the little piece...got to the studio and as expected, played it and he asked what in the word was that? I said that was the piece you wanted me to learn! He said yeah sort of ,but what you played is not what's written. I said, oh no? He said to me "make it better, think about the piece..ways that you can make it better" ...& I said ok, I'll make the little piece better.. . Started the piece w/ an i-m-a arpeggio, few rasgueos & finally a huge golpe and the end...needless to say the lesson was over... :-D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 0:51:24

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

I love it when people unwittingly document their own stupidity.

I have been teaching a long time and never met a boy over 13 who didn't come with the ridiculous assumption that he knew best.
The ones who leave with this belief intact well.... good riddance.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 1:11:37

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

quote:

Started the piece w/ an i-m-a arpeggio, few rasgueos & finally a huge golpe and the end.

Rock and roll kid, rock and roll. So yeah, I could talk about El Capullo live at the bull-ring in Jerez again, reducing my 80 year-old (non-flamenco) Dad to tears.... or Classic FM's latest Chill CD or my old neighbour struggling with a broken back from the orange orchard. Take your pick.

Keep doing what you are doing, but compás is your mistress. She has eluded me for years. With flamenco, get that and you got it nailed.

p.s. i-m-a is only half an arpeggio in my book

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 1:38:46

gato

Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

No matter what happens or where you go or who you see, just keep that passion, and one day, you will look back and know that you kept it up and there you will be, a flamenco guitarist, wether you learn classical or not. That's all it takes, and it takes time, and a lot of work. We all have that in common. Sounds like you want it, and if you want it that badly, well, don't let obstacles get in your way........

_____________________________

The Life Everlasting/Oswald Utopia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 3:04:31

ecgfc

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 18 2007

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

hi guitarbuddha, I think what he was trying to ilustrate to me the novice student was that I was totally out of tempo, one note lasted longer than the other my postures was out of wack and I did not use the rest stroke and the end of the piece... I was never corrected by him (!) and it was until I did my own notation research that I figure out what in the world he was taking about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 17:04:22

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

p.s. i-m-a is only half an arpeggio in my book

One definition for arpeggio is, “The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously”. While a chord is, “three or more different notes “. Hopefully, those three or more different notes will sound good to the listener!

I call an I,M,A Arpeggio a “Forward Arpeggio”, A,M,I a “Reverse Arpeggio” and an I,M,A,M,I a “Full” or “Forward /Reverse” Arpeggio.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 17:29:51

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc) 1 votes

If you ask for advice you may be overwhelmed with differing opinions. In the end only you can answer your own question.

Before we had media to teach flamenco guitar, learning how to play was done in a number of ways. For the most part it was done by ear. No Tabs and certainly no notation!

I know someone who claims he has a friend who is classically trained and never played flamenco guitar. The friend was given a flamenco piece transcribed from Sabicas. It was in notation and the classical guitarist played it with all the perfection and passion that Sabicas possessed. Imagine sight reading a piece and obtaining such a result!

Sabicas taught himself – he had no instructor.

Ramon Montoya refused to teach his nephew Carlos Montoya anything about the guitar. Juan Serrano learned from his father.

During the early 1960’s in Spain Barbers often taught flamenco guitar. A haircut was 17 cents and a bottle of vino Tinto was 3 cents. There were many drunk Spaniards with long hair. Barbers acted in self defense! Today they would call that diversification.

Fathers, relatives and neighbors often taught. Remember that flamenco is not that popular throughout Spain. When a Spaniard moves to the United States they often acquire an appreciation for flamenco.

I suggest you start with traditional flamenco. Learn compas. There are many palos. If you go to my web site you may learn a bit about them. Learn one thing at a time.

If you listen to flamenco and attempt to emulate what you hear then you are learning as people did up until recently. Recently is a subjective term I know but so be it.

Remember that there are many ways to play any given technique. My document on 101 Rasgueados is proof of that. I stopped at 101 as I had to stop somewhere! We have a famous hiway in California numbered 101 so that was a good choice!

Some teachers will insist you emulate everything they do. As I have said before and repeat as I often do (It goes with age) 85% of teachers are incompetent. That statement has infuriated some individuals on this forum. If the shoe fits then wear it!

Now about that “simple Solea”: Solea or Soleares as it was called up until recently, has over one hundred forms. On top of that there are many different versions within a form. If you know one Soleares then that is fine as a solo. If you attempt to accompany singers from different parts of Spain then you had better know many forms.

There is more to flamenco than the guitar. In fact the guitar is a minor part of flamenco. Cante and Baile are the heart and soul of flamenco. At best the guitar is there for embellishment. Solo flamenco guitar is in a class different than flamenco. Flamenco is a way of life and not a few fast picados to impress anyone.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 18:00:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2pfwLNrRXg

Sorry, but I wish that kind of technique gets put to actual music and not just a bunch of random noise.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 20:25:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Sorry, but I wish that kind of technique gets put to actual music and not just a bunch of random noise.

Yeah, but his hair's good IMO.
Ricardo, if you maybe don't like the playing, at least give credit for the hair...

cheers,

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 20:38:11

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

@ guitarbudda: why are you attaching this youtube video ?
What point are you trying to make ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 22:29:08

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ecgfc
I said ok, I'll make the little piece better.. . Started the piece w/ an i-m-a arpeggio, few rasgueos & finally a huge golpe and the end...needless to say the lesson was over... :-D

That's funny man !

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2007 22:58:23

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to ecgfc)

Hmm what can I say about that video. It's pretty abstract music, reminds me of Ginastera's as well. Not my kind though.

As for the poster's teacher, I guess you're better off finding another teacher. He sounds to me more like a guitar teacher who teaches classical, rather than a classical guitar teacher. There's a huge difference imo.

Classical and flamenco are both great in their own ways but can get very different. People who think they can play flamenco with not much effort and background with great classical background are naive. And vice versa as well. Classical isn't everyone's cup of tea, same for flamenco, it's just that both tend to be (sadly) lumped together in the same genre!

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2007 9:39:15

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2007 10:17:12

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Sh1t, that video was funny...not laughed as much since I had to ditch from an early '80's Keith Tippet gig.....awesome, truly awesome.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2007 19:43:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Input needed for novice (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

Now about that “simple Solea”: Solea or Soleares as it was called up until recently, has over one hundred forms. On top of that there are many different versions within a form. If you know one Soleares then that is fine as a solo. If you attempt to accompany singers from different parts of Spain then you had better know many forms.

Just curious how you came up with that number. Pedro Pena (From the Pena Fernandez clan...Pinini, Fernanda etc) claims there are something like 45 as quoted in "Toque Flamenco"by Alvarez Caballero(I think).
I know there are many but how did you arrive at that number?

Shoot, I only know 2. Por medio and Por arriba.