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RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle and neck relief ?   You are logged in as Guest
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aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to vachterm) 
Hi Charlie
No worries, i didn't take offense and you can poo poo or disagree whomever you wish. I certainly do...:) In terms of spending time with Barbero, I was under the impression they had a correspondence of sorts that revolved around some guitars he was going to build for Barbero...or am I mistaken in my memory? In any case if it was something he did and I believe Reyes also did, again accounting for my memory....then it's not really something he had to have direct contact with Barbero to know about.

This thread is really a mountain from a mole hill.

A
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2013 22:13:08

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
Yeah, that mountain out of a mole hill stuff seems to happen a lot around here.

I don't have the David George book handy but I seem to recall that Reyes did mention something about a couple of letters back and forth.
My fuzzy memory is also telling me that he also said that he was saddened because he never got to show Barbero any of his guitars.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 22 2013 22:22:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to C. Vega) 
quote:

I don't have the David George book handy but I seem to recall that Reyes did mention something about a couple of letters back and forth.
My fuzzy memory is also telling me that he also said that he was saddened because he never got to show Barbero any of his guitars.


I read that interview as I was putting my books in cold storage, you remember pretty correctly. Reyes sent Barbero a guitar to look at but B. died before it got there. Reyes also said he was very interested in Santos' work.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 0:52:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Dont worry Aaron I´m perfectly relaxed. And I also agree that flamenco guitars work best with a neck with very Little relief. Almost straight. BUT backbow, NEVER. Not even o,25mm


I know this was for Aaron, but I vaguely remember him talking about this issue. Understand I was one tracked minded test driving all these beauties and trying not to drool over them, so a lot of his interesting comments went zoom through my ear holes. THe impression I got was in reference to a Reyes guitar, and that it seemed to be warped so he was set to repair it for a client when he made the SHOCKING discovery that the seeming "defect" was intentional. Like it wasn't just a back bowing but a fancy warping. Perhaps as a player he went in looking with his fingers first to gauge the problem? And perhaps the Barbero deal is BECAUSE he discovered this thing on a Reyes first and investigated more deeply???

Anyway he seemed quite proud that he did not accidentally screw up what he felt was quite an ingenious intention. Considering the simplicity of the issue (like dude just raise or lower the bone or use a truss rod), I also was inclined to believe him. More so because in cases where, for example he stated maker X "did" this...I made it clear I was skeptical and he assured me he had found a sister instrument (or more) with the exact same deal. So he doesn't make wacky claims lightly, and of course he knows this "back bowed so all the frets buzz the same exact way across the fingerboard" was super wacky. Better to talk DIRECTLY to him if you are truly curious, he's easy to contact.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 3:01:14
 
Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
quote:

Your other two questions are not germane to_ this_ discussion. Once again, we are discussing Brune's assertion that this was intentional to give a certain kind of raspy attack (he called it rajo, if I remember correctly). That was the whole point of the comment.


First of all, the 2 questions would give the world or just me an idea of what you generally think about back bow, but after rereading the thread, I can see that you already answered the last one by saying that you make your guitars with very Little relief almost straight. Btw. good explanation by you and Jeff on why to much relief is not good.

What you describe in the quote is called Rajeo. (you know with spanish j) and its exactly what I meant when I said that Sabicas buzzes ALL the time. Its very old school. Especially guitars set up for dance, were setup so that they have a lot of rajeo. It makes them more percussive.
In solo playing, this is sometimes used by old school players to kill the tone. you know making this short percussive almost no vibration notes.
Very few modern players if any wants that nowadays and especially when playing a lot of chords all over the fingerboard, (which old school players dont do very much) the guitar gets a very "dead" feel. Its not vibrating.
Also, in general, it kills volume and projection.

So, seing things in that light, I can understand that in some very specific uses, like Sabicas playing, that intentional backbow can have an effect. But it is looking for something really weird in todays light.
Also it is a very controversial thing to say on a luthiery fórum. Its like if you were saying that the world is flat or that cars work better with square tyres.....
So I dont think its making a mountain out of a mole or a storm in a glass of water.


So last, just a question: would you setup a new guitar like that if thats what a client would want?
I would say no because it goes very much against my perception of a good flamenco guitar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 6:27:23
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
as i recall the 51 barbero was built for carlos montoya who, as i have read elsewhere, liked buzzy low action. i wonder if montoya asked barbero to have the neck built to his needs and the neck was then made to satisfy that need--or barbero made the neck in the way it was made knowing what montoya liked.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 10:19:45
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to Jeff Highland) 
quote:

When you get a guitar with excess relief, someone will generally have lowered the saddle drastically to get the 12th fret string height to where it looks right.
Then the frets from 10 or so up buzz, and the action on the lower frets still feels high.

To get it playing right you then have to lower the relief and raise the saddle.
The clearance at the 12th fret may end up the same, but there is the ability to play clean (or push into buzz) uniformly over the fretboard.


Jeff, your post describes exactly the issue I'm having with my guitar. The string height at the saddle is very comfortable at about 7mm, but there is very little saddle remaining for future adjustments. The 12th fret action on the low string is just under 3mm. Notes higher up on the fretboard will buzz, and I've always felt that the playability for the left hand could be a bit easier. The guitar is very good, and I have been thinking about having a local guy plane the board and refret. I would be interested in hearing from some of the luthiers here on how much they would charge for this job. I was quoted around $700.

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 11:49:35
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
Reyes Sr talks a bit about Barbero in this video, although he has a bit of trouble remembering the details himself



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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 11:54:52
 
Ricardo

 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 23 2013 13:24:55
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 12:00:43
 
ralexander

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From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
Read that line again, amigo

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 12:06:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to ralexander) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander

Read that line again, amigo

no coffee yet! I read it wrong I think because of Jeff's use of the word "drastically" regarding lowering the bone, because it is an ideal thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 13:24:20
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
It's all good! Not being happy with a 7mm bridge height would deserve a bitch slap from another player for sure!! I like it so much that I'm concerned about making it any higher in the process of fixing the excessive relief issue.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 13:43:29
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
Ralexander.

maybe you could have the frets slightly sanded and dressed. If the excessive neck relief is not to excessive, it sometimes does wonders. It depends a bit on where the guitar buzzes and how the relief is on that particular guitar. Sincé its with a low bridge setup, it should be the frets close to the nut that get work. If not, you´ll get an even lower setup.

I agree with Ricardo and you. 7mm at the bridge is great. Very comfortable.
But the problem is that if you go lower, you might start hitting the soundboard under the strings when doing hard picados. Some like that and some hate it.......

700 yankee dólares is a lot of money for a refret and a fingerboard shave.. I´m not that much into american economy, but would be lucky to 1/3 of that here in Spain. Which is a reason that I normally say no to repairing instruments.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 14:33:28
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Hi Anders, I'm very happy to see you on the Foro giving good advice again!

Back in April, I had a local luthier level and dress the frets which did improve things somewhat. However, depending on the climate I still have buzzing on the low E and sometimes the D & G when played open, and also when fretting higher on the neck around frets 9-10 and up. The neck appears to have a bit of bow and the relief is maybe 0.5mm or a bit more. I'll check it again tonight.

I don't want to go lower on the bridge string height. It's basically perfect now I think, so I'm only concerned about losing the great feel if it goes too much higher.

By the way, I'm Canadian - you are forgiven Thanks also for your input on the cost of this job in Spain, it's good to have some points of reference.

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 14:46:51
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
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RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

... if you go lower, you might start hitting the soundboard under the strings when doing hard picados. Some ... hate it.......


That is how it was for me when my now preferred flamenca arrived. Thinking like `what a mess is this?!´
The hand accustomed quickly however. Fingertips will not touch the top anymore, and in the same time there is no estrangement regarding other guitars. -Not for more than minutes of getting used to again.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 16:00:41
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
quote:

I still have buzzing on the low E and sometimes the D & G when played open,


Have you checked the stringheight at the nut?
0,5mm relief is a tad to much. IMHO, 0,1 is what Works the best.

If you decide to have the fretboard levelled, make sure you find a lutier that thoroughly understands flamenco guitars. In your case, it sounds like the fretboard should be levelled on the upper end, towards the nut. Depending on the relief, sometimes its enough to take off the upper 6 - 7 frets (close to nut), slightly remove a bit of Wood from the fretboard, instal new frets and level them with old ones and maybe flatten the frets from the 9th and upwards to the soundhole. If done right, its almost as good as taking all the frets off and level the fingerboard and it has the advantage that you dont remove material from the fretboard where the higher frets are installed.
This way you shouldnt get problems with getting a to low brigde setup. If you plane the whole fretboard, very easily you end up with a slightly lower bridge setup, which is not recomendable in your case

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 16:09:32
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to ralexander) 
Insofar as cost for repair, that does depend on who does it. I was 500 for a number of years for that job (which also includes adjusting the nut and saddle). I recently went up to 600 USD. I figure I should charge at least as much as my mechanic. I'm with you Anders, I try not take on too many of these jobs as they are too much time for not enough money.

Hell, I hired a tax attorney for a side business I tried to launch and he was $400 an hour! I like to think I enjoy my work more but who knows...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2013 21:54:54
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
String height at the nut is maybe 1.3-1.4mm - not 100% sure.

Thanks again for the tips. I'm going to see a guy this weekend so we can discuss this and he can evaluate it in person.

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2013 11:41:40
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: All you LUTHIERS - neck angle an... (in reply to aarongreen) 
quote:

I figure I should charge at least as much as my mechanic.


Funny, thats what I always thought myself, but the mechanics keep on raising their prices and I havent raised anything for 5 years or so. Its getting difficult to survive being a Luthier.

Ralexander, I didnt explain myself very well. What matters is the height over the first fret.
A cheapo checking trick is to hold down the 3rd (or 2nd) fret and see if there´s a very small amout of air between the 1st fret and the strings. If the strings are sitting on the first fret, then the string height at the nut is to low.
The strings should be so close to the fret that its actually easyer to hold down the string over the 3rd fret and tap the strings over the 1st fret. There should be a small rattly sound.
You can also do it with car valve gauges. I cant remember the exact number right now. I have it written down. But since I was taught the first way (very spanish) thats what I mostly do

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2013 9:43:13
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