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Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish
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JBASHORUN
Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005
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 Appreciating cante WITHOUT understan...
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Just got a quick question for you Flamenco Aficionados:
Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language?
I ask because I have quite a few cante CDs (plus other CDs from various World Music genres) and some of them I quite like, even though I have NO IDEA what is being said. Sometimes I pick out the odd familiar word, or get a vague idea of what a song is about from the title. But most of the time, the singer could be singing about how bad his haemmoroids are for all I know! Although I do hope thats NOT the case! 
Anyway, in an ideal world, Cantaors would list the English translations inside their album covers. Perhaps thats making it a bit to easy for us, but if I remember rightly, Estrella Morente has done this (at least with her debut album). I occasionally search websites for the letras in Spanish, and then run them through an online translation engine, but the results are just as amusing as the descriptions Javier Conde's father posts on his guitar auctions!
So... am I really missing out on that much? Is it "wrong" for me to accept the cante at "face value" (in other words, appreciate it primarily for its musical content, as opposed to understanding its true meanings)? after all, who can tell for sure what a singer's lyrics REALLY mean to them?
Or is it one of those things where, if you DON'T understand what the singer is saying, then you really DON'T understand the music?
Btw, this topic reminds me of my mother's story about how she and her friends used to sing along to "Honky Tonk Girl" (by The Rolling Stones) as a teenager... and they also had NO IDEA what a "honky tonk girl" was!!! 
Gimme, Gimme, Gimme...
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
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Date Apr. 30 2007 22:55:13
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Guest
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RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT under... (in reply to Adam)
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Well, what can I say?. Apart from Romerito, does anyone here understand that flamenco is cante? Many Spaniards do not understand the letras, but neither do they like flamenco. Aficionados do understand the majority of letras and in palos such as fandangos they are of paramount importance,
Sean
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Date May 2 2007 14:38:12
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Estevan
Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT under... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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Of course you can get a lot from the music without understanding any of the words, but the answer to your specific question:
<< Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language? >>
obviously is NO.
The fact that a lot of forms are defined by the letras suggests that the words are pretty important. But a somewhat less than 'full' appreciation works well for most of us on this forum, I reckon.
Even if you know Spanish fairly well the song texts are something else because of dialect etc. (e.g. every line has to end in "-ao", no matter what the word is).
But if you know some Spanish, at least you can recognize some key words so that when you imagine the rest it could have something to do with the original!
And yes, sometimes you might wish you hadn't found out what a song was about because they can be pretty grim, but that's an aspect of the culture and society, and it's better to be aware of it than to be totally out to lunch.
I agree with romerito, every little bit helps. Do youself a favour, JB, and learn some Spanish - I don't know much, but it sure helps; not just with songs, but reading articles and interviews, etc.
And you'll learn that not all bulerias are about chickens.
"So this guy from Granada goes into a bar..."
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Date May 2 2007 17:27:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT under... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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quote:
Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language?
If you don't understand the lyrics, you miss out on the poetry. Of course often times, it is not about the poetry. People can feel music with no lyrics, so of course appreciating the cante is possible w/out understanding the lyrics or meaning, but "FULLY" can be defined differently by different folks. For me fully means every detail. Meaning, the music aspects are more difficult to grasp than the poetry, which could be translated. But of course, if you don't have the translation (I mean really understand the point and background), it means you don't "fully" appreciate it.
On the other hand, just because you are a self proclaimed aficionado, or dancer, or even guitarist that speaks fluent spanish or even Calo, doesn't mean you FULLY appreciate what is being sung. The only way, IMO you can FULLY appreciate is if you sing it yourself and feel it and understand it. You take the time learn all the melimas and do the compas correct, etc.
Having said all that,(I know my view of "FULLY" is extreme), but my Gitano friend Jesus Montoya who is a true master Cantaor, and also speaks English and likes to translate letras and discuss cante to students, has expressed several times that, NO it is not so important. He relates his interest and appreciation to Arabic singing, how close it is to what he has grown up with as a gypsy singer, and that even though he does not understand the lyrics, the singing really moves him like the flamenco. He means what the voice is doing melodically, the rhythms, the melismas etc. He thinks it is totally legit for an aficionado to appreciate the cante, the music, without understanding lyrics. Of course he likes to talk about the beauty of the poetry and what it means to a gypsy, but he showed how could improvise the lyrics on the spot, change the meaning, or just to be funny. He could sing the same letra for any palo. So lyrics are secondary, but of course meaningful.
My experience with other singers is that interms of guitar accomp. they are more comfy with a guitarist with a good ear for melody and compas, more so than one that understands lyrics. Of course, IMO, the guitarist that understands both is ideal. But I have found myself laughing at a cantaor who was kidding around with the lyrics in rehearsal, but the other Spanish guitarist in the group, was zoned out or not focused on the lyrics and missed the joke. So I guess my point is...it is all good.
Ricardo
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Date May 4 2007 23:17:21
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Carlos Bedoya
Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico
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RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT under... (in reply to JBASHORUN)
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For those that do not understand Spanish it might be useful to know that it's not only the lyrics but the way Spanish is spoken by flamenco artists. Understanding Spanish does not mean you can always understand what is being sung. Gitano words often substitute Spanish words so “mare” (mother) is used instead of "madre". Sometimes lyrics are sung in a way that implies that the listener is acquainted with the words so the singer has the freedom to, for instance, not finish the verse… Often words are cut off so “olvidado” (forgotten) becomes olvidao or orvidao (pronounced “olvi DOW” as in “DOW” jones) which is a common accent in Andalusia (South of Spain) but not necessarily so in other regions of Spain. There are many other examples…
Culturally, this immediately identifies flamencos as unique sub culture set apart from the rest of Spain. There is an inherent rhythm, musicality and humor to Andalusian Spanish. This why some in Spain would prefer to use the term Castellano (pronounced Casteyano) instead of Spanish, when referring to the language that is used as the common language between different regions of Spain that have their own languages and dialects.
In my case, the idea of cultural immersion is part of the fun of it all. Human problem solving is reflected in language and I especially find fascinating how a cultural group con solve or avoid conflicts many times not only by what they say, but how they say it; many times through humor.
Anyway Spanish (Castellano) is always accommodated to the compas, often in very ingenious ways, and that is just another layer that adds to my enjoyment of flamenco.
So you many not need to know the language but from my point of view it’s a beautiful part of the process that opens doors to some great human experience.
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Date May 18 2007 14:32:27
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