Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (Apr. 30 2007 22:55:13)

Just got a quick question for you Flamenco Aficionados:

Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language?

I ask because I have quite a few cante CDs (plus other CDs from various World Music genres) and some of them I quite like, even though I have NO IDEA what is being said. Sometimes I pick out the odd familiar word, or get a vague idea of what a song is about from the title. But most of the time, the singer could be singing about how bad his haemmoroids are for all I know! Although I do hope thats NOT the case! [;)]

Anyway, in an ideal world, Cantaors would list the English translations inside their album covers. Perhaps thats making it a bit to easy for us, but if I remember rightly, Estrella Morente has done this (at least with her debut album). I occasionally search websites for the letras in Spanish, and then run them through an online translation engine, but the results are just as amusing as the descriptions Javier Conde's father posts on his guitar auctions!

So... am I really missing out on that much? Is it "wrong" for me to accept the cante at "face value" (in other words, appreciate it primarily for its musical content, as opposed to understanding its true meanings)? after all, who can tell for sure what a singer's lyrics REALLY mean to them?

Or is it one of those things where, if you DON'T understand what the singer is saying, then you really DON'T understand the music?

Btw, this topic reminds me of my mother's story about how she and her friends used to sing along to "Honky Tonk Girl" (by The Rolling Stones) as a teenager... and they also had NO IDEA what a "honky tonk girl" was!!! [:D]

Gimme, Gimme, Gimme...



Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 30 2007 23:30:52)

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duende -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 7:28:23)

when i was a little kid and started to listen to Kiss,Ac/Dc, Wasp, Metallica etc
i had no idea what they were singing about yet i liked the song as much as the loud guitars, of course you get a bit deeper into some feeling and emotions of a song when you know whats being sung.

A siguiriya can bring a tear to my eye without me knowing a single word of the letra
the emotion translates quite good anyway



buleria -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 17:56:38)

I agree with Duende (though not about Metallica![;)] I mainly listen to cante and would happily never dance again if only I could sing. Although I do speak Spanish it's not good enough to translate all the letras but the feeling still seems to comes through. (My Spanish friend disagrees, however.) And then there are those funny times when a song really gets to you, so you think - I must sit down and translate it - and it's about a chicken and you think - I wish I DID'NT know that!!! (I am currently dancing a buleria to a song about a chicken under the bed which is why I thought of that example by the way!) So, yes .. I think you can appreciate cante without understanding it though I suppose in an ideal world you would. Karenanne

Jb - any idea what Tomasito is on about? That might be interesting!



JBASHORUN -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 18:23:44)

quote:

Jb - any idea what Tomasito is on about? That might be interesting!


Karenanne, my Spanish amigo tells me that Cositas De La Realidad is mainly about "women and womanizing". And another member says that Torrotron (Tomasito's debut album) has some similar themes. I think the G5 (Tucaratupapi) album is slightly more diverse, but don't quote me on that... I know one of the songs is about money: "Ay-ay-ay-ay-ay! Ese dinero yo lo quiero coger!".

I guess "deep and meaningful" letras aren't really Tomasito's thing...[:D]

Jb



Adam -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 20:36:39)

If I might offer another way of looking at it - perhaps you even enjoy music better when you don't understand what's being said. That way, you aren't TOLD the song's meaning, so you instead have a blank slate with which to interpret it, to focus solely on the music. I think it's no surprise that my favorite music is instrumental or in languages I can't understand.



JBASHORUN -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 20:45:07)

quote:

perhaps you even enjoy music better when you don't understand what's being said. That way, you aren't TOLD the song's meaning, so you instead have a blank slate with which to interpret it, to focus solely on the music. I think it's no surprise that my favorite music is instrumental or in languages I can't understand.


Yes, it does lend a certain "mystique" to the music, which you are probably immune from if you understand that the singer is really having a rant about chickens or some-such...

Jb



Adam -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 20:46:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

quote:

perhaps you even enjoy music better when you don't understand what's being said. That way, you aren't TOLD the song's meaning, so you instead have a blank slate with which to interpret it, to focus solely on the music. I think it's no surprise that my favorite music is instrumental or in languages I can't understand.


Yes, it does lend a certain "mystique" to the music, which you are probably immune from if you understand that the singer is really having a rant about chickens or some-such...

Jb


Isn't all flamenco cante about chickens?? [:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 20:50:57)

quote:


Isn't all flamenco cante about chickens??


It could very well be, for all I know! [:D] But I would guess that most letras are based on emotional and social issues...

Jb



koella -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 21:06:53)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buleria
And then there are those funny times when a song really gets to you, so you think - I must sit down and translate it - and it's about a chicken and you think - I wish I DID'NT know that!!!


I'm sorry I'm confused here. Is it about a fried chicken or a living one ?
[&:]



koella -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 1 2007 21:13:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buleria
I am currently dancing a buleria to a song about a chicken under the bed which is why I thought of that example by the way!


Oh now I understand. I didn't read the whole post.
Of course it's a fried chicken:
Man goes to bed. Man thinks he will get hungry late at night. So a fried chicken under the bed is not a bad idea, no ?

Jezus what a crap.
[&o]



Guest -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 14:38:12)

Well, what can I say?. Apart from Romerito, does anyone here understand that flamenco is cante? Many Spaniards do not understand the letras, but neither do they like flamenco. Aficionados do understand the majority of letras and in palos such as fandangos they are of paramount importance,

Sean



Florian -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 14:57:03)

quote:

Apart from Romerito, does anyone here understand that flamenco is cante?


well what do you rekon ? theres many guitarists here playing for dancers and singers.

theres dance teachers, theres guitarmakers, what do you rekon ?

sure we not all in Cadiz like you but we learn what we can out of comic books with pictures.



koella -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 15:07:45)

When I was a baby my mother would hold pictures in front of my face.

With a guitarist picture she would scream : BAD, VERY BAD !

With a singers picture she would smile: goooood !

I learned a lot from that.



buleria -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 15:13:53)

Well, I don't think it IS a fried chicken as it is crying!!![8|]

Sean, not sure what you mean with 'does anyone here understand that flamenco is cante'. Thought I'd always made that one clear? Cante first - and then you can argue about what comes second - though I'm pretty sure it isn't make of guitar strings![;)]

Karenanne



Kate -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 16:16:04)

Taller de Compás sing a great song about a chicken under their Grandma's bed that farts. It is very funny, but is basically about hunger and so actually is very sad, their tummys all rumble with hunger while the only thing that gets fed regularly is Grandma's chicken.

But no I dont think it is neccesary to understand all the letras. Spanish people have enjoyed the Stones and the Beatles withoutunderstanding a word.

Kate



Estevan -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 16:19:51)

For Koella:

quote:

So a fried chicken under the bed is not a bad idea, no ?

It all comes together - an English slang word for sleep is 'kip'...



Estevan -> [Deleted] (May 2 2007 16:24:16)

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Estevan -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 17:27:30)

Of course you can get a lot from the music without understanding any of the words, but the answer to your specific question:

<< Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language? >>

obviously is NO.
The fact that a lot of forms are defined by the letras suggests that the words are pretty important. But a somewhat less than 'full' appreciation works well for most of us on this forum, I reckon. [;)]
Even if you know Spanish fairly well the song texts are something else because of dialect etc. (e.g. every line has to end in "-ao", no matter what the word is).
But if you know some Spanish, at least you can recognize some key words so that when you imagine the rest it could have something to do with the original!
And yes, sometimes you might wish you hadn't found out what a song was about because they can be pretty grim, but that's an aspect of the culture and society, and it's better to be aware of it than to be totally out to lunch.

I agree with romerito, every little bit helps. Do youself a favour, JB, and learn some Spanish - I don't know much, but it sure helps; not just with songs, but reading articles and interviews, etc.

And you'll learn that not all bulerias are about chickens.
"So this guy from Granada goes into a bar..."



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JBASHORUN -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 18:20:11)

This is turning out to be quite an interesting thread! I think the general consensus is that you don't HAVE TO understand Spanish to appreciate cante, but it helps. And if you want to FULLY appreciate cante (and indeed Flamenco, according to some) then it is likely that you WILL need some understanding of the language. That said, everyone takes something different from music... I would really like to hear the opinion of a professional cantaor and/or guitarist. Maybe one day I will get to ask one. If anyone is going to Gerardo Nunez' workshop in London next week, that would be a cool thing to ask him...

Jb



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buleria -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 2 2007 22:03:47)

A gypsy singer I know in Madrid has been trying to teach me to sing. It does not seem to bother him that my Spanish is only okay. Of course, I would love to understand everything but I don't and it hasn't stopped my getting all tearful to Camaron's taranta on his last CD.

Going back to that blasted chicken - Kate, we may be on about the same song. It does belong to a grandmother - though I though it was crying? Nina Pastori sings it on her first CD????

Karenanne



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Ricardo -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 4 2007 23:17:21)

quote:

Is it possible to FULLY appreciate cante WITHOUT understanding the Spanish language?


If you don't understand the lyrics, you miss out on the poetry. Of course often times, it is not about the poetry. People can feel music with no lyrics, so of course appreciating the cante is possible w/out understanding the lyrics or meaning, but "FULLY" can be defined differently by different folks. For me fully means every detail. Meaning, the music aspects are more difficult to grasp than the poetry, which could be translated. But of course, if you don't have the translation (I mean really understand the point and background), it means you don't "fully" appreciate it.

On the other hand, just because you are a self proclaimed aficionado, or dancer, or even guitarist that speaks fluent spanish or even Calo, doesn't mean you FULLY appreciate what is being sung. The only way, IMO you can FULLY appreciate is if you sing it yourself and feel it and understand it. You take the time learn all the melimas and do the compas correct, etc.

Having said all that,(I know my view of "FULLY" is extreme), but my Gitano friend Jesus Montoya who is a true master Cantaor, and also speaks English and likes to translate letras and discuss cante to students, has expressed several times that, NO it is not so important. He relates his interest and appreciation to Arabic singing, how close it is to what he has grown up with as a gypsy singer, and that even though he does not understand the lyrics, the singing really moves him like the flamenco. He means what the voice is doing melodically, the rhythms, the melismas etc. He thinks it is totally legit for an aficionado to appreciate the cante, the music, without understanding lyrics. Of course he likes to talk about the beauty of the poetry and what it means to a gypsy, but he showed how could improvise the lyrics on the spot, change the meaning, or just to be funny. He could sing the same letra for any palo. So lyrics are secondary, but of course meaningful.

My experience with other singers is that interms of guitar accomp. they are more comfy with a guitarist with a good ear for melody and compas, more so than one that understands lyrics. Of course, IMO, the guitarist that understands both is ideal. But I have found myself laughing at a cantaor who was kidding around with the lyrics in rehearsal, but the other Spanish guitarist in the group, was zoned out or not focused on the lyrics and missed the joke. So I guess my point is...it is all good. [;)]

Ricardo



Carlos Bedoya -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 18 2007 14:32:27)

For those that do not understand Spanish it might be useful to know that it's not only the lyrics but the way Spanish is spoken by flamenco artists. Understanding Spanish does not mean you can always understand what is being sung. Gitano words often substitute Spanish words so “mare” (mother) is used instead of "madre". Sometimes lyrics are sung in a way that implies that the listener is acquainted with the words so the singer has the freedom to, for instance, not finish the verse… Often words are cut off so “olvidado” (forgotten) becomes olvidao or orvidao (pronounced “olvi DOW” as in “DOW” jones) which is a common accent in Andalusia (South of Spain) but not necessarily so in other regions of Spain. There are many other examples…

Culturally, this immediately identifies flamencos as unique sub culture set apart from the rest of Spain. There is an inherent rhythm, musicality and humor to Andalusian Spanish. This why some in Spain would prefer to use the term Castellano (pronounced Casteyano) instead of Spanish, when referring to the language that is used as the common language between different regions of Spain that have their own languages and dialects.

In my case, the idea of cultural immersion is part of the fun of it all. Human problem solving is reflected in language and I especially find fascinating how a cultural group con solve or avoid conflicts many times not only by what they say, but how they say it; many times through humor.

Anyway Spanish (Castellano) is always accommodated to the compas, often in very ingenious ways, and that is just another layer that adds to my enjoyment of flamenco.
So you many not need to know the language but from my point of view it’s a beautiful part of the process that opens doors to some great human experience.



wiseguy493 -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 18 2007 16:19:59)

It's not impossible to find translated letras and if you appreciate the music and don't speak Spanish, these are good to look for.

I enjoy a lot of the cante and I don't speak Spanish, and I do occasionally spend time reading interpretations of common and frequently used traditional letras. That helps me appreciate the music more



a_arnold -> RE: Appreciating cante WITHOUT understanding Spanish (May 18 2007 23:24:08)

Here's a site with lots of translated letras that some might find enlightening. I've always felt they range from moving poetry to disappointingly pedestrian "pop" style lyrics that are best left untranslated. Which, I guess, means that ignorance of the language can enhance some songs, and diminish others.

http://www.telefonica.net/web2/flamencoletras/index.html

Can't remember who said this:

"Music is a language that everyone understands, and yet it is completely untranslatable."

Tony Arnold



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