Bulerias Compas Question

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rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Bulerias Compas Question

Hey mates,

Quick questions:

1- Does bulerias always have to have a 3/4 meter feeling to it? (it is usually in 3/8 right?) So that means, we can count it as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc. ... Is it possible to have a 4/4 feel to it? (i.e. can it be counted with a feeling of 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, or 1-2, 1-2 ... ?)

2- What is the difference between starting bulerias on 1 or on 12?

THANKS.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 18:52:59

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

Well Ramzi (How are things in jolly ol' Beirut at the mo anyway?)

Ricardo is the Cleric of the Forum in these matters

, but in simple terms, the way I understand it is that Bulerias is the old count we all know 12, 3, 6, (7) 8, 10 ..etc...but obviously those same 12 beats can be expressed as 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3 or 1 2,1 2,1 2,1 2,1 2,1 2 and Flamencos will use every availibility to subdivide the beat or mix it where they can, if it sounds interesting

A good basic way for beginners to think of Bulerias IMO is to think of a 3 beat going on with a 2 beat at the same time.

You don't need a guitar for this.

Just keep your foot tapping 2,4,6,8,10,12 while clapping with your hands,
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12.

It's a bit odd to do at first, like patting your head and rubbing your tummy at the same time. Each part of your brain wants to do different things.

But try it when you are at a loose end...waiting for a bus or something.

It passes the time..

But the essence of it is no more complicated than that.

Once you've got that down, then start syncopating your hands from the regular 1 2 3 to
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
and generally just play around with it.

Also try clapping on every beat EXCEPT 3, 6, 9 and 12 and you end up with that "classic" Bulerias palmas sound.

Once you get it then you see that it matters not which beat you want to start a falseta on...it just adds a different slant to things.

Also you see why Bulerias naturally can fall into odd six beat groups.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2007 19:53:39

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix
1- Does bulerias always have to have a 3/4 meter feeling to it? (it is usually in 3/8 right?) So that means, we can count it as 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc. ... Is it possible to have a 4/4 feel to it? (i.e. can it be counted with a feeling of 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, or 1-2, 1-2 ... ?)

OK, here we go again

BTW, Ricardo has answered written on this at great length several times, so check the archives.

Although it is often written/transcribed as all in 3/4 this is really for convenience. More accurate would be 2 bars of 3/4 followed by one bar of 6/8 per compas IMO as that conveys the rhythmical feel better... unless we are talking about bulerias with a jerez feel in which case I would go for two bars of 6/8.

However, personally I don't find disecting it in terms of time signatures that helpful if you are learning to play it unless you come from a theory background and think that way.

Ron's post is interesting because I think that gets you to the basic pulse - something you can tap your foot two and yes that can work in two's, threes or a mixture of both.

quote:

2- What is the difference between starting bulerias on 1 or on 12?

One beat

Beat 12 feels like a natural start to the cycle because is is a heavy accented downbeat as opposed to one which isn't. Falsetas can start on either (or before 12). But once you can play bulerias, you see it as a cycle and so this isn't really an issue.

Imo the best way to get to grips with it is to forget about time signaures AND counting, learn some basic rhythm compas, turn on a flamenco metronome and dive in.

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 8:55:55

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

Thanks guys. I'll try to have a look at the archives, but my schedule is so busy. I just needed some quick answers because the other day my teacher played what he called a buleria, and it sounded like nothing close to that ... it had no chording compas in it at all, and was all a series of arpeggios. I really don't know about my teacher. I am no longer taking lessons with him anymore. I did so for 3 years, and then resorted to the foro and videos (like Oscar's Paso a Paso and stuff on the internet from hopefully reliable sources, and some Encuentro stuff). But he has been playing for 20 years, and he has a doctorate in musicology, and has studied in Spain for some time. But I don't know why I don't really trust his knowledge or his technique. He is very cocky, and claims he never does anything wrong, which thus makes me try and hunt at his mistakes even more (considering that I have been playing for five years now, and i have a feel for things, i guess). I don't know if he's doing stuff incorrectly or if i'm just not getting what he's doing. But the things he plays are things I NEVER hear anything like from any of the greats like Grisha, Ricardo, PdL, and all the flamenco greats. That is what makes me doubt if he's doing stuff correctly or not. He has weird technique (like a tremolo with thumb for bass, then pinky, a-m-i instead of i-a-m-i ... along with other weird stuff like really mixed up rasgueados .... the ones i've learned and feel most people use are the ones that are structured; like the ones in Oscar's Paso a Paso ... he does rasgueados very sloppily ... and claims that they should not be choppy ... I have no idea, and I just noticed that this message has turned into a stream of consciousness!) ANYWAY, i'll try to read some more about buleria compas in Ricardo's posts in the archives if I have free time on my hands, which is rare at this time in school (and rehearsing for a concert twice a week with this teacher of mine and other musicians ... my second flamenco concert to take part in). So what do you think of any of the various topics mentioned in the above LONG post? HEHEHEHE!

PS: Ron, what does "the mo" mean?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 15:17:24

Stu

Posts: 2552
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

Sorry to answer a question for someone else but.. "The mo" means "The Moment" He wants to know what things are like in beirut at the moment.
I think that's the only question I've ever answered on foro! Hooray!!. Shame its not about flamenco.
Stu

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 15:44:20

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

Sorry Ramzi, it's just lazy slang for "at the moment".

That's a bit worrying about your teacher.
You've got to be able to put your faith in a teacher in order to relax and learn.
But if he doesn't really understand Flamenco himself, then not only are you wasting your money, but spending your precious time and effort learning rubbish which you will have to unlearn in the future.
Hmm..Would it be possible to take along a recorder to a lesson and perhaps (temporarily) upload an example of his playing to the Forum?

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 15:45:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14861
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

1- Does bulerias always have to have a 3/4 meter feeling to it?

No, in fact two people can feel different meter at the same time. Just depends on how you understand meters and subdivision. 4/4 not really. Some folks think of 12/8 as 4/4 with triplet feel or eighth note swing feel. This mathematically could work for a lot of bulerias arpegio melodies, but that is not really the proper way to feel the meter. So I just say forget about 4/4 in bulerias all together to keep it simple. One meter works nice is 6/4 with 16th note subdivision. But in general I feel it as either 6/8 and/or 3/4 with 16th note subdivision, as Jon mentioned.

quote:

2- What is the difference between starting bulerias on 1 or on 12?

Same as starting ON the down beat (12), vs starting after the down beat, on the up beat (1). Tangos is in 2 or 4, and likewise often starts phrases on the up beat, or on the down beat. Most flamenco rhythms have similar feelings in that sense.

quote:

Would it be possible to take along a recorder to a lesson and perhaps (temporarily) upload an example of his playing to the Forum?

I agree with Ron. Best way to get second opinions if others could hear him play. If you are embarrassed about it or don't have his permission or whatever, you can do it privately by email or PM.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 19:30:39

rombsix

Posts: 7823
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

Hey guys,

First, thanks for teaching me the new expression: "the mo."
Second, unfortunately it would be nearly impossible to record him (video or audio) and upload it for two reasons:
1- I don't have a videocam or anyother means of video recording, and I have a very crappy digital voice recorder that works OK for voice, but pathetically for guitar (I tried recording with it and the sound ends up grossly distorted, no matter how hard I fiddled with the distance, volume, etc.)

2- My internet connection is so slow that I cannot upload anything greater than 1 MB ... if i'm lucky that is. I don't understand how .... I can download at up to 14.5 Kbps, but I cannot upload at all ... only small files a couple of 100 KB in size ... max.

Sad ain't it? And I have to pay USD 50 for such a crappy connection (per month!).

THANKS FOR THE BULERIAS EXPLANATIONS ... I'LL HAVE A GO AT THEM AFTER MY CARDIOVASCULAR PHYSIOLOGY EXAM ... cheers

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 20:47:38

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bulerias Compas Question (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I have a very crappy digital voice recorder that works OK for voice, but pathetically for guitar (I tried recording with it and the sound ends up grossly distorted, no matter how hard I fiddled with the distance, volume, etc.)

Ramzi,
Don't worry...we're not looking for Studio quality stuff here.
Some of the mp3s from Flamenco-World are totally dire...absolutely horrible!
But you can still tell a great player when you hear it!

Or otherwise...

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2007 21:35:50