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Posts: 126
Joined: Dec. 5 2005
From: la peninsula balkanika
Pinonate (Paco de Lucia)
this is how professional transcription, notation should look like. in comparing to this Alain Faucher looks like a little child.. and this was transcribed 15 years ago..
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
Alain does tabs so this has nothing to do with it. in his tabs you see where to put your hands so whats the diffrence? in what year it was made is not an issue at all.
this tells me the same information as his tab does. i wonder what tabs you came across that were so incredibly bad.
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RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
Fauchers wrote some books, too. One f.e. for Gerardo Nunez. There is a transcription of the siguiryas Remache with two strings in different tuning. He wrote that composition in tab and notation perfectly. So I cant see any differences except, that Faucher wites the tab, too. And learning a piece with tab is for people who didnt studied classic much easyer than with notes. And this piece has two strins in different tuning. Thats extremely difficult for most of the flamencoguitar playing people to read notation with different tuning. And I think 99% of the poeple who buy Fauchers tabs are flamencoguitarrists or learning ones. Its wasted time to write it down in notation, coz only 1% would use it, no? I allways thought, notation is for composing, for understanding the theory of harmony and for writing down music, that people who play other instruments can read and maybe play the music too. Its an international lenguage for instruments and music-theory. If music is just written for guitar, a tab with the speed-bars (dont know how to call it) is enough I think.
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
Every single bar which was a downstemmed note fails to indicate where the bass note is damped or released. This means that in terms of notational accuracy every bar with downstems is wrong, each system should add up to the number of beats that the time signature indicates. They do not.
The speed is not crotchet 120 but in fact quaver equals 240, this is important to let the player know the density of rhythmic accents. There IS a difference in feel.
The FEEL of the demisemiquavers when performed at this speed is of a grace note, this represents on the page a better idea how the music should be phrased, where the important notes are and what the underlying syncopation is. Wtiting them as demisemiquavers is wrong.
Bars which are phrased in 12/16 ( according to the beaming of the transcriber ) should carry a 12/16 time signature. The majority of bars on the left carry the wrong time signature.
The pima fingering followed by an upstroke with the index finger is unlikely at this speed, it is much more likely to be a downstroke with the ring and/or middle finger.
Bar eight fails to indicate that it contains triplets.
The piece is in a phrygian and should carry a B flat in the key signature. It fails to.
All of the above is really quite stupid nit picking. But it can be done by almost anyone. (Not just overconfident and argumentative teenage imbeciles with inflated ideas of their own abilities and no social skills who excuse their own innacuracies by making reference to unverifiable factors like 'its a variation' or 'its a live version' .) What is really much more important is that the transcription is very accurate and represents hard and honest work by a diligent and sympathetic transcriber. It would take me a lot of time to work it out and whilst this would have been a valuable learning experience there are others and we only have so much time.
Reading music is good, neglecting readers is to consigne the guitar to the sidelines of many ( PROFESSIONAL ) musical situations. It is a skill and imparts knowledge, these things are always good. Why should guitarists deny themselves them. Why shouldn't WE look at the music of other instruments to learn from them, we have the right too.
Tab should be included, even if only for commercial reasons.
Doitsujin there are some very minor and unimportant mistakes in Remache starting at bar ten. Faucher trims down the amount of repetitions of the ami arpeggio to fit the time signature. He does this consistantly throhought the piece.
He probably did this for a reason. It was a choice. I think he chooses very well and we should all take our hats off to him. The ( unnamed ) transcriber of the paco piece the idiot posted does work of a similar quality.
I checked this just now by reading through the transcription ( notation ) whist enjoying the opportunity to listen to the piece again. This is a great joy for me and cant really be done with TAB. It can be done with notation because of the PICTORIAL nature of standard notation, you know you can take in A LOT just at a glance. It is a great way to study music. It is also great for helping you be realy ACTIVE whilst you are spending the really important time listening.
Anyway tomorrow I am going to post the first six bars of a piece that Ghandi played to me on the moon last week ( and if anyone was there it was just after they left ). I of course finnished writing it out before he had finished playing it in a way that standardised music notation and made it for the first time completely objective and devoid of aesthetic choices. With the other hand i played it simultaneously as I was transcribing it. With my foot i prepared us a delicious meal the quality of which he had never before experienced.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Guitarbuddha, I agree with just about all your nit picking. 12/16 grouping too, is really misleading, not that he should change meter, but rather NOT beam that way. Not indicating the triplets, is so bad.
Only thing is, sometimes demisemisquaver (is that 32nd notes?) paco does in bulerias, are clear,not grace notes, when you slow it down. Faucher uses grace notes when really there is "swing" semis or 16ths. There are several things that I disagree with, which can be a choice of the transcriber I guess.
But anyone who can play can use even a bad transcription as a tool to learn it proper. About faucher also, I am almost 100% certain he puts DELIBERATE and obvious timing mistakes (not refering to the overall meter issue) into his transcriptions, to see who tries to steal his work. I can give you my reasons if you are interested? Point being, people DO steal his transcriptions and reproduce his "mistakes". Like cheating on a test where two guys get the same exact wrong answer.
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
Agreed about the semis, but in this transcription I think that they were grace notes ( at high speeds we need to be clear about musical intent ).
I find timing errors but it is often in the bits that I find hard to sing or which sound muddy slowed down. Maybe I dont notice the other ( deliberate ) ones because I dont listen enough to the recording. The ones I mentioned were kind of editing Nunez I think.
I wish that Faucher would adopt the correct bar lines for Bulerias which is I think a major advantage of the style of the PDL falseta posted and of Herrero/Worms in comparison to Faucher and Encuentro.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
The ones I mentioned were kind of editing Nunez I think.
Oh yeah he does that too. Makes it fit nice and neat in compas, especially on free tempo stuff, like old fandangos, nino ricardo alegrias, etc.
The things I am refering to are not so obvious on the surface. More for the knowleadgeable player/reader. I have noticed it with Nunez transcriptions mainly because I have learned that stuff from Nunez too. But also for instance, there was a Manolo Sanlucar falseta, where he plays 16th notes, bass note then three melody notes follow. He wrote like triplets with the bass occuring simultaneously with first note. So subtle, the player can figure it out by ear, but "wrong" mathematically. I heard stories of him calling Encuentro on the phone saying "you stole my transcriptions!!!". It seems crazy and ecsentric behavior, but I discovered it to be true! I have seen others copy his "mistakes", including Encuentro.
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
Yeah its a rough job transcribing, and to be honest it would be a really good idea to use someone else's transcription as a reference. Not honest but well tempting.
Fauchers Nunez book is seldom on my stand, mainly because I have so much music which is written with the correct time signatures. I couldnt do what he does. Especially with mistakes, like that alegrias falseta that Jim posted with the arpeggio melody having no direction at all then two of the first four semiquavers smeared in the picado section then at the end all the string crossing fudged so badly that you basically have to guess what was intended (I think he meant the Zyrab lick transcribed to D major but who knows ) I mean transcribing that kind of thing and putting your name to it takes bravery.
Also with a piece like Remache I would be paralysed, note clarity is not a problem with Nunez but so much of the rhythm in the toque libere sections differs in intention to what Faucher wrote to my ears but who knows how Nunez is hearing it.
Its always funny when you hear someone playing obvious mistakes from transcription collections like that macaroni guy missing so many notes out of Pacos Falsetas just like the Worms editions. But saying all that neat scores are much more welcoming and a lot of the 'dirt' on the page comes from a really stylistic approach to technique.
Have you ever heard Tuck Andress playing, almost impossible to transcribe and reall ugly to look at. You really have to study each element of his technique and how he uses it and kind of go through the same process as he did to get to something similar. Same with late Paco.
One guy who I wouldnt like to have to transcribe, Tal Farlowe....monster.
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
sorry to ask that, but is there only one page for this buleria? where are the others? if you have them, could you please send them? thanx a lot man hasta luego
sorry zabie but this is something that my friend has transcribed so it wouldnt be ok to give all his work for free, but if you are really interested in this buleria or whatever other composition (because he has transcribed lots of them), then i can ask him about terms.. saludos
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
thanks a lot hassurbanipal!!!!! that's wonderful!! are you french? es tu français car il ya du français dans ta signature, voila thanks again man, youre a big boss!
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
you're welcome, I'm from Belgium and we speak three languages here, there's three official languages, I will put it like that. we have German, French and dutch. donc, il n'y a pas de problème...
amusez-vous avec la partition.
Andy
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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens." E. Satie
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
zabie, c'est vrai, lille n'est pas si loin de Malines. c'est vraiment amusant de connaitre gens comme ca. Il y a un festival de flamenco chez toi, n'est pas?
et de rien salut
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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens." E. Satie
RE: Pinonate (Paco de Lucia) (in reply to branquito)
sur le section de tab ici, il y a un de tomatito (le solea de paseo de...) chez le sujet de 'tomatito tabs needed' encore des autres sur www.moderntoque.com le site de conrad. si tu as besoin des autres envoy un email a moi et je vais voir que je possède des autres......ok? hassurbanipal at gmail dot com
et quand je passe lille, je vous telephone, d'accord?.......:))
salut
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Plus je connais les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens." E. Satie
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I have seen others copy his "mistakes", including Encuentro. 
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