RE: Juan Martin

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RE: Juan Martin

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r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Ricardo)

Its not that I dont WANT to learn the rhythm but more of being unable.
Take a simple reggae song, you will have to play offbeat. I cant do that nomatter how hard I try, ill end up on the beat. So Ricardo said, forget about the bike, but thats saying to someone in a wheelchair "Get up and walk normaly !"

and for the rhythm/compas confusion, should one not be in rhythm to get the compas right? I think so.

But I will take the advice and practice the rhythm (wich I spelled most of the times correct if I am not mistaking

) seems there is no escape from it.

For the upload of my song, we'll be old and grey, but most important of all, we'll be deaf and you cannot hear wheter I am in compas or not. Just kidding, ill try and let you know.

Rob.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 15:35:10

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Let's get back to Juan Martin!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 16:36:31

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

I have all his CD's and play his music on my wonderful Esteban guitar that I had "Firefingers" autograph.

I would buy one of Esteban's guitars if his violin player signed it!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 16:58:47

itoprover

Posts: 343
Joined: Jan. 3 2006

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to legrec)

quote:

ORIGINAL: legrec
Let me share with you my beginner's experience : I started, like lots of people, by saying and thinking exactly what you've said. BUT, after three-four years of playing, I painfully realized in several occasions (and in this foro) that I was still a TOTAL beginner in flamenco, after all these longs months of work and efforts.
So, the question is : do you want to be in some "always stuck at beginner level" relation with flamenco ??

Unfortunately I had the same experience :( - I thought I would learn the flamenco technique and harmony first and apply the rythm later - it simply does not work this way...

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 17:05:13

Hugh

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul. 27 2006

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

r0bbie. I too am using the Juan Martin book of "El Arte Flamenco".
I'm on book one at the moment, and I find it really good irrespective of the negative response he gets.
I really like his style and think its a great way to start.
However. I do find that after watching some of the guys on here, and the information that they have given me on "right hand techniques", the book is somewhat lacking in information.
I am getting on great with it at the moment, and although I 've still a few pieces to learn in the first book, when I learn them, I am ordering the second part as well.
I really like the stuff on the second part of the cd. So its JM for me for the next year or however long it takes, then I'll look to maybe learning the more modern flamenco music.
I'm going to use the book and the info on here from the guys, and I think thats as much as anybody could ask for, without actually going to a teacher to learn this music.
What the guys are saying is that he's teaching a more classical right hand technique, rather than a flamenco right hand technique, which makes one hell of a difference to my tone, so I've found in the last few weeks.
Having said that, now that I'm doing it the proper way, the book is an excellent tutor I think.
Its all down to what you like I suppose, or what you find the most natural to your playing ability.
A friend of mine purchased the Graf Martinez book about the same time as I got JM, and gave me a loan of it for a few days. I have to say that the JM suited me better for whatever reason. I did find that Martinez explained things more clearly though.
Maybe it just me being an "old git" I find the traditional style more homely

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 19:06:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

Are you confusing rhythm(I know how to spell it ) with compas.

I agree with your point Romerito, but I have different terminology, at least I hope. It sounds like you may mean rhythm=tempo or steady tempo, and compas=meter/phrasing specific to flamenco.

I think of Rhythm as a big umbrella including tempo, meter, groove, phrasing, style or special "swing", depending on the genre. "Compas" means the same, but all those things I listed, as applied to FLAMENCO specifically. In other words, the metronome will serve the same purpose in "rhythm" as "compas". It is simply training steady tempo. This needs to be worked on FIRST so the other elements have a purpose, a reference. True flamenco compas often involves a moving tempo, but how can one stretch time, or move the tempo deliberately, if they don't first understand how to keep a basic beat? Too many new students think of compas as so "different", so "exotic" compared to music they think is "easy" rhythm, and start learning the meter and phrasing (12 count cycle etc), ignoring the most important base: steady tempo.

quote:

So Ricardo said, forget about the bike, but thats saying to someone in a wheelchair "Get up and walk normaly !"

Well yeah man, "rhythm therapy"! But it starts with baby steps. Basic quarter notes ON THE BEAT with a metronome. Others are ready for crutches. (compas track or flamenco metronome). Some can limp. Some can walk. Still others are joggin, sprinting, long distance running. We are all at different stages, but none of us so unique.

quote:

Take a simple reggae song, you will have to play offbeat. I cant do that nomatter how hard I try, ill end up on the beat.

You think you are so special? The vast majority have the same problem. Just depends on if you WANT to improve or not, and how hard you are willing to work at it. Start with metronome slow, ON THE BEAT (ta ta ta ta ta etc). Can you REALLY do that? The click should disappear. If you can, then subdived, TWO NOTES per beat (taka taka taka taka). Keep it going. Then play only the second note for a while if you can
(taka _ka _ka _ka_ka ). The click reappears!

If you feel like you will lose it, go back on the beat
(taka _ka _ka _ka losin it!_kaTA ta ta ta ta). If you lose it faster than that, do it shorter until you are perfect.
(taka_ka_kaTA ta ta ta ). Keep trying for more "ka's" until you really can control them for a long time. Then speed up the tempo a little bit.
Use 2/4/6 eighth notes to shift off or back on beat:
taka -ka-ka-kaTA ta ta, or takataka-ka-ka-katakaTA ta ta ta, etc.
Or 1,3,5 notes to stay put:
ta ta ta, of course, takta ta ta ta, takatakta ta ta ta. etc.

These are like drum rudiments. Some rare folks just "sense" these things, others need to work or drill them. Metronome if your best friend once you get into rhythm. Should be for every music student, any genre.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 21:33:12

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to r0bbie)

[Deleted by Admins]

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 22:16:48

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Well, maybe there is hope :-)

I see some other forum members have/had the same problem and tried to take a shortcut wich does not work on the long run. I know the feeling of being a beginner for more than a couple of years and not getting any better. Then I gave up and practiced less wich led to even worse results of course.

quote:

We are all at different stages, but none of us so unique

Believe me, I am unique!
Unique in screwing up the rhythme of a song. Once I was playing Smoke on the water and a drummer in an other room joint in. 30 seconds later he stoped and came to the room I was playing in. He said, HE!... do you listen at all? did you ever played with someone else because you missed every beat.

But I started practicing again after I decided to try flamenco because its the ultimate guitar music and I started with scales up and down with 4 fingers of the left hand. sometimes I use my thumb and sometimes two fingers to strike the stings. I will get a metronome and use it to exercise the scales and when playing.

All I have to do now is to find a way of getting my girlfriend out of the living room so I can practice...... mmmmm I feel a new topic comming up

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 22:20:23

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Are you taking lessons.
If not, I think you should.
Don't waste your time. Life's to short too mess around ( concerning things you really like, of course)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2007 22:25:23

JasonM

Posts: 2058
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Do what Ricardo says. Put the metronome on like 60 bpm or as fast as your comfortable with, pick any 4 notes, and play them on the beat. Thats what he taught me. Great way to start. Forget the scales. Forget technique. Keep it simple. You are practicing rhythm. If you can do that then you are playing in rhythm. And I'm sure you can do at least that. Reggae will come in no time!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 0:43:47

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

my question is if I should study JM's material or throw it away and find a better "teacher

You will receive more ideas on this subject than Carter has pills!

I began playing guitar when I was 10, and spent the first year learning on my own. Then I began taking lessons. I will never forget my first lesson! I had learned more in that first one-hour lesson than I was able to teach myself in one year!

When I began playing there were no published method books. Now you have many to choose from. There are different ways to create any specific technique in flamenco. Some are better than others. It is possible to learn a technique in such a way as to impede your progress.

Along with many method books you will find many teachers who have different concepts of “what is proper or correct”. The best way to learn for the average person is to find a good teacher. Learn at least the basics and then teach yourself.

Some teachers demand that you play each technique the way that they do. If your technique is not “correct” you will have to learn their way.

Decide what type of flamenco you want to play. I would suggest starting with traditional flamenco so you can learn the foundation of technique and compas, and if you wish go on to any of the modern forms.

The first three months of flamenco guitar lessons I had were spent playing technique. If you use DVD’s and method books then you might consider using different ones to pick up what you like. Having a choice is nice. Not everyone has the same hand structure. You may find that a certain technique is best played like Method A, while another technique is more comfortable using Method B.

Try to get a few DVD’s of artists playing flamenco to see the right hand in action. Ask people which DVD’s show the right hand. Some are very good at that and others are not. Personally, I think that the more resources you use the better off you are. Pick and choose what you like.

The Juan Martin material is very good and you can learn a lot from it. It is only a beginning and is not the total answer to learning flamenco guitar but it is a very good place to start.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 17:11:19

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

Well, to be honest...

I listen to flamenco for about 8 years and one of the first cd's i got was Friday night in San Francisco which I realy played a lot. later I got more cd's from Montoya, Paco de Lucia to name a few and best of them all, Sabicas (IMHO)

But I dont have a clue whats old and new flamenco and I will search this forum and see if I can find anything about it. But most of the recordings of Sabicas sound old so I gues that's the old way. (could be totaly wrong here so forgive me if thats the case)

I have heard many great guitar players playing the songs Sabicas did and only some get close to the sound of Sabicas. So I know it's imposible for me to get the sound and play of Sabicas but if I have to pick one style in flamenco, that would be the one.

For now, ill stick to JM and see what else I can find to compare it with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 18:20:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Do what Ricardo said.

When your not playing on the beat make sure your foot is tapping exactly on it.

Set the metronome about 60 ( too fast and you wont know whats going on and too slow and you wont feel the movement ) at this speed you will be able to hear every mistake. This is good because you can only fix what you can hear.

Think of your rhythm work as teqhnique work.
Dont do any technical work without a metronome, ever......ever.....ever.

I've had hundreds of kids who thought they were playing smoke on the water but had no rhythm.
The ones who fixed it enjoyed playing more, some of them even gave pleasure to listeners !!!

I am keeping a list of those who didnt and one day soon I will hunt them all down and kill them.

HA HA HA HA HA

Oh and about Juan Martin he's a below average pro who has had more success than musical accomplishment. He has a strong melodic gift which justifies his publication of pieces IMO, it also makes his music approachable to flamenco initiates. Also he has went to the bother of writing a lot of traditional material that is attractive and reasonably easy to learn and put it in good value for money collections ( which he calls methods ), these are a good resource for any player and to be applauded.

However he has apparrently no wish or vocabluary to explain how technique works and his performance notes are laughable. They are vague in a way that will not alienate people looking for easy answers, because they give no useful information. A proper explanation for a technique would take a lot of time and is best done by a live teacher.

Find someone whos playing makes you want to dance or tap your foot. Pay them and do as you're told.

Good luck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2007 22:53:40

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Mentioning again...

As you are in Holland - can you get to Amsterdam easily?
If you can try John Fillmore. A very good guitarist and teacher no matter what your level. You will get so much out of a 2 hour session to get you going. Not just playing advice and direction, but ideas for listening also. I bet you will enjoy it if you go

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 7:00:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

quote:

Believe me, I am unique!
Unique in screwing up the rhythme of a song.

Well, all I can say is that maybe you feel that way because you are "aware" of rhythm and where your place is in it. That is actually a very good sign. It means you can work on it. Believe me, there are people that are not even "aware" their time is off. Even some "proffessional" musicians. How can they work on it if they don't realize it is a "problem"?

In Spain I noticed LOTS of Dutch guys had very good rhythm. Of all the europeans going at the flamenco guitar, I was surprised at the seemingly "natural" sense of compas the Dutch guys had in general. I want to say that Rotterdam school had to do with it, but not everyone went there necessarily. Whatever it is, I noticed it.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 7:20:22

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Crows)

quote:

If you can try John Fillmore. A very good guitarist and teacher no matter what your level.

Seconded!
John's a very fine player, composer and excillent teacher. Down to earth guy with good humour. Very easy to get on with.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 13:06:53

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Crows)

Crows,

I have seen you mentioned John Fillmore and I am not far from Amsterdam, perhaps 1.30 hour drive. I have considered it (still am) and have two thoughts about it. The first is "He can criticize all he wants, because I can only gain a lot and he wont kill me" the second is however "He will kill me if I tell him I have been playing for 28 years and come only this far"

It is a bit of what I see on the tv. In holland there is some kind of singing contest and the candidates have to do an audition. Some of them CANT sing, at ALL!!! Its horrible and the worst is, THEY think they can....

No self criticism at all and I think they shouldnt be there in the first place.Then I think, man... you should have kept that private.... NEVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN!

Now you tell me to go to a "Master" and go into the "public"....

I Know, ill just have to do it, right now..... pick up the phone... no wait, another beer.... that will help GO GO GO....

Seriously, I am considering it and perhaps I am not that bad but have to much self criticism.

Rob.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 16:06:55

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Hey Rob,
John Fillmore is an excellent guy!
He's a solid player and a really easy-going guy and got a great sense of humour.
These pro teachers don't expect you to play well, after all that's why you are going to see them!
That's part of their living!

Consider it like going to the doctor.

(That's what I did...a sort of "technique doctor".)

I had the same sort of issues as you when I went to see Rafael in Oxford.

www.flamencoguitarist.co.uk

I had been playing around with Flamenco guitar on and off, for years and years and had never had any formal lessons.

I was as nervous and embarrassed as hell, but I eventually got the courage to pick up the phone.

He was really easy going and gave me mucho encouragement and like John, has great stories and a great sense of humour.

Most of the day was just spent talking and sorting out issues rather than "OK..here's falseta number one" type thing.

Book a 2 hour lesson or more so that you have time to go over stuff without looking at the clock.

You won't need weekly lessons or anything.
Take a camera or mp3 recorder with you.

One good lesson will keep you going for a number of weeks or so.

cheers

Ron

_____________________________

A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 17:23:23

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Your comparison with the singing contset is decieving.

They go there because they think they are the best and can be a superstar. If they are actually bad, it is a blaim.
You would go to a teacher because you do the self critizism and realize that you need help.

By the way a completely other question:

Did you have a nice girl as a partner at your graduation ball?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 19:17:37

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Rob,

Don't worry, John is one of the good guys. This is borne out by the comments of Jim and Ron. If you go to see him I bet you will come out smiling.
I felt much like yourself before I went

Andy.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 19:38:05

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Georg)

quote:

By the way a completely other question:

Did you have a nice girl as a partner at your graduation ball?

Graduation... that sounds unfamiliar.... lets get a dictionary....AH... there it is.... "Graduation is the action of receiving or conferring an academic degree or the associated ceremony"

Well, this is gonna be off topic for sure :-)
But to answer your question, we in Holland dont have a graduation ball in the way they do that in America but I had a girlfriend when I "Graduated"

If this is a question about me being uncertain then I can answer, yes I am but it depends. Give me a microphone in front of a audience and I "colaps" but as a technician I get called to "shoot some troubles" and get lots of attention from an "audience" without problem, thats my field and there I am at my best. Same goes for meetings, as long as there is no singing involved :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 20:18:36

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

No I asked this because I wanted to know if you can dance.
Normally people have a dancing night after graduation or after leaving school (that's at least the way it is in Germany).

You say that you have no rhythm, but if you can dance (a simple waltz is enough as a proof) there must be some feeling for rythm inside yourself.

I think that Everybody has a certain degree of feeling for rhythm which he can develop further. Without rhythm you would not be able to walk, otherwise it would look pretty funny.

Go for a walk. Think in a simple 4/4 beat. Your right foot does all the numbers. Your left foot does all the "ands", like this

right left right left right left right left
one and two and three and four and

When you can do this, try to add a snapping of your fingers at the "ands"

When you can do this go back to your guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 20:36:45

JasonM

Posts: 2058
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

Well, would you look at that! A Juan Martin thread with a happy ending. Never thought it would be possible. What should we do now? Should we all leave the forum and go into the west? Perhaps I will leave with three profoundly parting words....

JUAN MARTIN SUCKS!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 20:39:38

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Georg)

This is fun gudibux

I added some movement of the hips and a little but wiggling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuxDiBux
right left right left right left right left
one and two and three and four and

No not back to the guitar ! You forgot the moonwalk and the sudden movements from the head towards the camera.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:05:25

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

The moonwalk is nothing I would recommend to people who are doing the first book of the Juan Martin method.

You should definitely learn it before you are going to play bulerias.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:16:54

r0bbie

Posts: 160
Joined: Feb. 11 2007
From: Holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

@GuxDiBux

quote:

No I asked this because I wanted to know if you can dance

Technically spoken your question was if my gilfriend was nice or not

But I can dance, as long as its on a 120 beat, boem tjak, boem tjak, boem tjak(dutch for a disco rhythm) but when it comes to a wals, i found myself listening to the bassguitar and folow his rhythm. So the rhythm is 1,2,3,1,2,3 I can dance to 1 AND 2,3 (if the bassguitar would play that) wich means I take step 1 and 2 in one beat.

Thats the point were the nice girlfriend all of a sudden isnt that nice anymore...

But I will follow the advice, already did the taka ta ta thing from Ricardo and will keep practicing till the day I become a metronome myself! -=Ahum=-

@ JasonM
Ask the girl from the graduation ball, she'll do a better job

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:31:12

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to Georg) 1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuxDiBux

The moonwalk is nothing I would recommend to people who are doing the first book of the Juan Martin method.

That's a nice picture. All those JM people who learn to walk backwards instead of forward.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:46:14

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

OH now i guess it's time for a glass of red wine, a warm stove and a pipe.

So much philosophy makes me sentimental

.

By the way Florian's guess will turn out to be true if we are going on like this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:53:20

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

I was just joking Gudibux.
I love Juan Martin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 21:59:08

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Juan Martin (in reply to r0bbie)

I didn't think of this metaphor, so you must have something of a genius.

I gave you five stars for this brainwave.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2007 22:02:27

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