RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

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[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

we ve all got to admit , it is exciting to wake up in the morning or after coming bacvk from work and press the :" Last post made "

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 17:27:50

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Doitsujin)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 17:32:13

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 17:37:23

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

hey sonikete sorry i had a moment back there

(yesterday) i dunno why it bothered me at the time, now i dont really care (I never actually called u anything by the way, i just said bite me.) But its all good, we all have different views and thats normal. It has made for a good thread tho

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 22:52:19

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete) 1 votes

Sonikete - I wasn't trying to say that you could be a Fugue!!! That is just plain stupid! I was using Classical music a an example of another music that has a set of conventions and structures - to relate further to the 'wrong Bulerias' comment.

As individual players we operate (maybe loosely if you are able to innovate) within the Flamenco structure for starters, but as far as I am concerned, the next step is to play from the heart, if it's not from the heart what is the point??? I think if it is not, it just becomes ego and commerce. So once we, as individual players of whatever ability, understand the form we ought to be true to ourselves. That is all I was trying to say!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 6:00:03

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

the next step is to play from the heart, if it's not from the heart what is the point??? I think if it is not, it just becomes ego and commerce

playing from the heart is a nice idea but dosent always work out that way, u not always feeling everything, but u still need to do it cause its planned.

if u play for a school u dont always get to play just what u are feeling, so u need the discipline of beeing able to lie convincingly (that u are playing from the heart)

and belive it or not all it part of a guiarists tools, heart, discipline, lying, ego (prefer to call it pride)

so i wouldnt be in a hurry to place ego as a bad thing, its not a bad thing to have when performing in front of people.

ego, self belive, pride whatever u wanna call it its the same thing, its a necesary thing to have.

while playing in front of people u have to convince yourself that u are good at what you do (even if u know better) otherwise youl never sell it.

so in theory it sounds nice in reality is more mecanical.

to the average listener is "magic' to the guitarist, its a hole lot of plannig and practicing, and scales and prerehersed actions. practiced 1000 times.
I dont know how u can play anything 1000 times and truly play it from the heart.
this is where lying to yourself that you are playing from the heart comes in.

IMO

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 6:19:03

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

hey sonikete sorry i had a moment back there

It all good Dominic

Im not very clear in my statements sometimes and they easily gets misunderstood because of that. Im sorry if you got offended!

quote:

if it's not from the heart what is the point???

Of course, none. But thats another aspect that defines a flamenco guitarist.

The term "complete" or a true flamenco guitarist has more to do with knowledge and repertoir.

If a singer is "complete" he has extensive knowledge, can sing a lot of different palos well, and knows a lot about them, as well as being able to sing to dance.

So the question should have been when do you become a "complete flamenco guitarist".

Then a lot of misunderstanding might have been avoided, or at least i think they would.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 7:04:12

Crows

Posts: 89
Joined: Sep. 27 2004

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian) 1 votes

Flo, I appreciate what you are saying as a working musician, but that train of thought is not for me....remember this is just my individual opinion.
I want musicians to play from the heart....OK it's not always possible, but if it is foregone there will be no duende (to use Flamenco-specific terminology).
Why even consider playing something mechanically for the 1000 and 1th time if it is no longer really felt? The mechanical base should be the platform, and one of the contributing factors, from which true feeling and inspiration flowers.....else it's just commerce and routine. I think that all musicians should strive to be true. I know that I am an idealist, and maybe in 200n that's a tall order, but that is the way I am. I think that musicians have the potential to create something very, very special in this world, and to just go through the motions is somehow fraudulent.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 9:40:42

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

The mechanical base should be the platform, and one of the contributing factors, from which true feeling and inspiration flowers....

I totally agree, what i meant was that learning to play to song is part of that mechanical base and part of the formation into becoming a "complete flamenco guitarist".

And that has nothing to do with "wanting to become spanish", "being a purist" or "elitist" or whatever label anyone wants to put on it.

Any guri guitarist could learn to do that with a good guiri singer anywhere in the world.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:02:02

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Somewhere in their live all these great artists get that BIG TRAIN going and get famous.
It might be a shock for you, but this train is not running on love for the art or some deep spiritual motivation.
No, it's running on money, MONEY !!!! MWUHAHAAAA!!!!

But of course we lesser gods could do more with those "true inspiration" and "flowering" thingy's

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:07:52

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

It might be a shock for you, but this train is not running on love for the art or some deep spiritual motivation.

I dont agree with that at all , there is just as long tradition of anti commersialism as there is of commersialism in flamenco.

I dont think anyone sings Tonás because they want a new mercedes,

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:11:59

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

You're absolutely right !

But hey, when you've played enough rumba's and bulerias you can play the tonas comfortably in the back seat of your limousine.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:20:02

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Well Tonás arent played, and there was a time, believe it or not, when mammon didnt rule the earth and people got together and sang for the love of it.

http://www.andalucia.org/flamenco/palos/resultado.php?palo=33&prov=SE&idioma=

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:22:52

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Well allright, he could play some martinete or saeta

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:29:30

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

or Debla maybe ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:30:46

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Yes, but you wouldnt sing either one of them to become rich, especially not nowadays.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:34:00

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Of course not.

I didn't say that !

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:53:06

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

However

I f I was Juan Martin, I would sing it all day. In my private jet, in my Hilton suite.
anywere !!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 10:56:55

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

Maybe, but Juan Martin has earned the title far more than Ottmar Liebert or any other of these "Noveau Flamenco" con artists who dont give a damn about flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 11:00:42

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

I'm only joking man.

Of course I would travel with a golden anvil to do the martinete properly

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 11:07:30

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

There are very few people who get rich playing flamenco and people who do commersial ambient pop like ottmar earns a lot more than most spanish artists.

What bugs me is that a lot of music consumers dont know the difference between ambient orientalist popmusic and flamenco, and people like ottmar arent really helping that situation.

Call me old fashioned but thats the way i feel.

quote:

I didn't say that !

Well in a way i think you did:

quote:

this train is not running on love for the art or some deep spiritual motivation.
No, it's running on money, MONEY !!!! MWUHAHAAAA!!!!

( And please tell me if im out of line or offending people again.

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 11:12:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

while we are on the subject , Santa is not real either.

Its really your dad or your grandd dad dressed in a red suit.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 12:39:06

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 12:48:00

koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

I just wanted to make a few jokes and now I'm in the middle of a discussion ??

Allright, Sonikete, I agree on everything you said. Just laugh a bit, can't you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 12:57:05

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

So Sonikete, u are saying that every single time u ever played at any gig U ALWAYS did it from the Heart ???

every single time !!!

Never just did it, it was always from the heart, whatever palo was coming next in the program, thats exactly where u were feeling.

In your head you never tough," Ohh I dont wanna mess this falseta up " u were always in Love land everytime ??,

cmon man

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 12:58:52

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Just laugh a bit, can't you.

I just did

quote:

So Sonikete, u are saying that every singke time u ever played at any gig U ALWAYS did it from the Heart ???

Of course not, but that has more to do with bad playing, an off day, lack of rehearsals or a number of other things. How well or not i play is something else than what constitutes a "complete guitarist".

I try to play with my heart as much as anyone else.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 12:59:46

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Also Sonikete

dont ask me why but i am starting to get the vide you dont really like Otmar

Why are you so hang up on this poor man ? It has nothing to do with flamenco , hes just a musicean making money anyway he knows how, why knock him for that. Its not his fault some people dont know the difference between him and flamenco, to my knolodge he dosent suggest he is flamenco.
Hes not doing anyone any harm, obviously people like his music, not for the skill but for something. Because hes out there.

Hes just a musicean doing his thing the only similarity between him and us is hes using nylon strings, thats not enough to crucifie him and hate him.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 13:08:57

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Hes just a musicean doing his thing the only similarity between him and us is hes using nylon strings, thats not enough to crucifie him and hate him.

I dont hate him at all, i feel sorry for him because he has started an avalache of crap music posing as flamenco. I think he doesnt sleep very well knowing that, and i think he plays from the heart and has great respect for flamenco, a lot more than the ones imitating him.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 13:12:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

Sorry, i take it back , never been to his website before.

but hes getting better listening to some samples i accutlay even like some of it, wouldnt call it flamenco but i like it.

http://www.ssri.biz/index.php?c=74

theres plenty of worst musiceans making money so why not him he knows how to make music to capture peoples imagination (nothing to do with flamenco) but its very hard to get people imagination with just a instrumental album, he manages to do it cause hes quite popular, no matter how much u dislike the music u cant discredit all of it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2006 13:16:40