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Pitingo y Habichuelas
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Pitingo y Habichuelas (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
both list 1-2-3-4-5-b6-7 as harmonic major but who cares.
Yeah, like I said it was not ME who said that, and later someone else disagreed with this guy too, but the scalator did give him the info, and his list of indian scales was very interesting. The scale he said was harm. major 1234#567, is like mode 3 or harmonic minor. Probably just confusing terminology. I have no problem calling it whatever.
The numbers after the scale degrees, are the steps between intervals. 1=half step, 2=whole step, 3=minor 3rd or augmented second, 4=major3rd, etc.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 3 2006 23:33:59
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Pitingo y Habichuelas (in reply to duende)
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quote:
Also Im thinking chords. In jazz it´s comon in your solos to insert chords into your playing that arent played in the rythm section.
If you play a melodie in Alegrias and the chord is E.
And use the C and D# notes you sort of give it the flavor of H7b9
and B7 leads back to E so then you can extend your melodic harmony with out changeing the actuall chord.
I think you call it "superimposing" in english.
...but then again maybe that weren´t the scale you were refering to?!??
Awesome you caught the bait! Yep so in alegrias you would use it as/over, in place of a V chord, tasty or "spicy" as you say, before resolving to tonic E, right? If you think modally that you are basing the scale over the B chord (you say H7b9, I say B7b9  ) instead of E (tonic) you could spell it from the 5th. BCD#EF#G#A, right, with me?
So you and others might be thinking of this as a cool modern, perhaps related to jazz, idea of imposition. Right? Well when used in E over alegrias. But it is not a new idea to take from phrygian or minor modes to use in Alegrias right? Traditional idea. So lets transpose to D.
DEF#GABbC# And starting from mode 5:ABbC#DEF#G So lets think of the key of A phrygian, like bulerias, and play that scale. Sound familiar? Manuel De Falla was using that mode in his "flamencoish" orchestral music, and it really inspired guys like Escudero, and young PDL. And perhaps Falla was inspired by flamenco too, not thinking of using Jazz modes in his spanish classical. Of course Paco was not thinking of imposing jazz modes either, but he simply quoted melodic passages of Falla in his bulerias.
Like way back on Fantasia Flamenca, El Tempul at 2:10. There is your harmonic major. And man you can hear it all the time in traditional jerez type stuff, and modern players, etc. But typically like this, mode 5 in phrygian. For Alegrias check out Manolo Sanlucar, I am pretty sure he uses it in his "puerto de principe".
OK my point being, it does not have to be "jazzy" to be modern flamenco, and you would be surprised by the things people think is "jazzy" now a days that is just plain old OLD school flamenco, but sort of "disguised".
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 7 2006 21:33:57
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Guest
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RE: Pitingo y Habichuelas (in reply to Guest)
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Usually i dont read the long posts (they have to grab in the first paragraph), but i read your story...it was cool. I dont care if its tue or not!!
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Date Nov. 8 2006 8:24:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Pitingo y Habichuelas (in reply to duende)
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quote:
There was an incredible musician who started out as a classical guitarist but realized the flamencos were making better money in the tablaos.
Well, I can't argue if it is a mystery.  Why can't you say who it is?  And still sounds like Charlie Byrd/Brazillian stuff, which I said before I agree is an influence, but I dont' consider it "jazz". Like was Villa Lobos "jazz influenced"?
quote:
I don´t spell that scale from B since im playing it over a E major chord.
If i were to play it over a B7 i would spell it from B
Right, that is why I said "if you did", just so you could see the scale better. And I got away with spelling from the 5th anyway because you wanted to "super impose" the H7b9 over th E. But not playing a chord, playing a certain SCALE. A scale and a mode are the same thing. You are really superimposing that Mixob2 mode OVER the E. Some nerd called it "modal borrowing in tonal music". (eye roll).
So just trying to show you where you might have heard it used. And for the record, Puerta de Principe (Alegrias in D major) is using the same type of scale, but over the D bass note. Even though he is simply using that same M. de Falla "mood" or vibe, you could TECHNICALLY spell it from D and look at it as a COMPLETEYL different thing, but honestly that is reading too much into it.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 8 2006 17:27:46
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Pitingo y Habichuelas (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
I have never believed in fusion. I see it as a pretext to learning things from other genres THAT WE NEVER DID BEFORE.
His point being that he has his meetings with other types of musicians, NOT to become a jazz musician, or classical musician, but to learn about other music and add new ideas to his own flamenco music. In other words, to inspire him to create new and different things that were still FLAMENCO. Not to put jazz INTO flamenco. Like I said before, a lot of what Paco brought "home" to his flamenco, the things he learned are specific to the artists he collaborated with. Nuances and exact quotes from Mclughlin, staccato left hand muting from Dimeola, counter point of Corea, but by adding a bunch of "new" unrelated chords to his bulerias, that is not jazz, or even a specifically "jazz thing to do". He is not thinking like a jazz guitarist when doing that. When he has a tune with chords to solo over, then YES he is thinking more like a jazz player. But he knows when he does that, it is not really flamenco anymore. "Laymen" as you refered to some listeners, can't make the distinction between THAT (soloing over changes) and adding "weird" chords or scales to a bulerias. Both are "jazzy". To me they are different things.
That is all I am or ever was saying. Calling modern flamenco "jazzy" is an unfair generalization in regards to the specifics of the music and a particular tocaor's style. But "laymen" AND aficionados do it all the time. Just trying to get more "underneath" it than the laymen, for those confused about the distinction. But the arguement is circular, so I am letting it go. (por fin huh? )
Ricardo
PS, the mystery guitarist, I am sure he is great as you say. But I bet he as a lot of good "stories" huh? He really couldn't tell the rpm on the record player was wrong, but he was able to learn flamenco quickly, BECAUSE he was a classical guitarist first???
Oh and Bach tonality vs modality. You forgot about the importance of tempered tuning. Big difference there. But on guitar, regardless of the type of music, ii-V-I is not specific to any single type of music that uses chords. Just using a chord does not make something "jazzy" or not. But for flamenco and the guitar, there are a lot of "flamenco" chords IMO, thanks to timbre of the instrument, and fingering. For me that is where the Brazillian connection comes in too. Anyway, enough with this boring stuff from me, I could go for ever on this.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 8 2006 20:47:32
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